• a [[community]].
  • #chat https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/ogm-fellowship-of-the-link
    • #doc https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RAourQe_MKh0uWomLsS_V5ea3zm30g8paE49X56jIHs/edit pull
    • #pull [[fotl]]
    • #pull [[sje]]
    • #pull [[building bridges]]
    • [[interop of chat]]
    • [[interop of links]]
• a [[meet]].
  • [[19 utc]] on [[wednesday]]
  • #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
  • #log [[fotl chat]]

• Beautiful!
  • [[John Perry Barlow]]

Fellowship of the Link

• a [[meeting]].
  • #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
  • #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
  • #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
• Attending: [[x]], [[y]]
• Start recording, we're currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
• Threads from last time we would like to pick up:
  • [[high leverage opportunities]] we can spot
  • [[generative commons]]
    • [[generative linking]] (inferring links)
    • [[general commons agreement]] https://bra.in/8qeNWy
  • [[wishlist]] approach to worldbuilding
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] let's discuss: note sharing.
    • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] let's discuss conventions? Added something in [[massive wiki]].
      • volunteered https://tftmap.massive.wiki/map/aram_zucker-scharff pull
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] would like to generalize the archiving tool / link card generator he's been working on.
  • [[Flancian]] would like to discuss [[Interwiki]] links and the [[common hub]] approach for search and entity resolution
  • [[SJ]] wants to discuss / address this at hacking days at Wikimania in August (you're all invited to Singapore ;) https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2023:Wikimania pull
• #push [[fotl threads]]
  • define:
    • [[wiki]] / root URL
    • /now
    • [[issue tracker]] / [[project tracker]] URL
      • [[github]] by default?

[[2023-12-06]]

• Attending: [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Bentley]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Michael Grossman]]
• Checkins
  • Health issues galore
    • [[Slime]] / [[cold]]
    • [[Malaria]]
    • and other [[Parasites]] :(
  • [[poop bank]] idea
    • on transporting biomes
    • [[against the grain]]: a book
      • [[cooked]] and [[uncooked]] people
      • [[age old divide]]: [[city]] vs [[countryside]]
        • [[murray bookchin]]
  • on sarcastic vs earnest AIs
• What's on our minds?
  • [[AIs]] as per the above
  • [[Publishing industry]] woes
    • #JM on [[April]]'s experience: most publishers are picking top 2-3 books to advertise/market and not marketing the others at all
      • she participated in ~100 podcasts.
      • [[book]]: https://fluxmindset.com
  • [[Neobook]]:
    • #JM [[Books]] are rollups of [[nuggets]]
    • #CA which licensing are you putting on the books you're writing?
      • #JM CC0 is the default
    • #CA are you aware of [[OER]]: [[Open Educational Resources]]?
      • https://bra.in/2vNAeW
      • https://boffosocko.com/2018/08/30/the-sixth-r-of-open-educational-resources-oer/
    • [[neobooks]]:
      • [[design from trust]]:
        • https://wiki.openglobalmind.com/projects/jerry's_nuggets/dft_book_contents_(the_toc) pull
        • https://link.agor.ai/nuggets-are-really-powerful is interesting
        • on [[types]] of [[nuggets]] and their [[outputs]]
      • and three-four more :)
      • #CA on [[webmentions]] as a framework for communicating derivative work -- on getting [[linkbacks]]
      • [[flancian]] [[webfinger]] for communicating about users/authors and [[webmentions]] for communicating about [[nuggets]]?
      • #CA [[marginalia]] using [[indieweb]]: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog
      • #JM https://www.workings.tools/p/wonkish-obsidian-footnotes-as-sidenotes
      • #CA [[the great conversation]]: "the reason you want to read Aristotle and Plato is that they started a conversation we're still having thousands of years later".
        • https://www.amazon.com/Great-Conversation-Books-Western-World/dp/B000BO9PHY/jerrymichalskisr
        • Jerry Michalski says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Conversation pull
        • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maynard_Hutchins pull
      • #CA https://mitpressonpubpub.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/syyor4ra/release/1#commentary-and-the-talmud as an exam
  • [[Agora]] + [[December Adventure]] updates

[[2023-11-29]]

• Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Flancian]]
• [[Peter Kaminski]]
  • Teaching AI to people.
  • Got back into [[NFTs]].
    • Platform for AI art.
    • [[Midjourney]] art.
      • Some of it rises into fine art territory.
  • [[Thessos]] [[hic et nunc]] [[thea]]
  • [[question for this group]]
    • looking for a new [[mastodon]] server
    • [[flancian]] likes social.coop :D
    • [[chris aldrich]] have you considered building [[activitypub]] into [[massive wiki]]?
      • [[pk]] some concerns with how AP works as a protocol, how the community innovates
        • [[nostr]] seems more promising community wise maybe
        • [[aram zucker-scharff]] interesting; I like the protocol but never felt like they had any community development
        • [[pk]] likes the [[NIP]]s
        • [[activitypub]] is more traditional governance wise
        • [[azs]] interesting, from my perspective it seems like the opposite! take e.g. [[pixelhub]] doing independent development of [[ap]]
        • [[ca]] https://phanpy.social/#/universeodon.com/s/111478703259005044?view=full
        • [[ca]] wordpress is working on being [[activitypub]] compatible
        • [[peter kaminski]] [[ghost]] with [[activitypub]] seems really nice
        • [[flancian]] it seems like it is near mainstream.
          • planning on adding support to the [[agora]]
          • [[bouncepaw]] added it to [[betula]]
        • [[azs]] it seems like it's winning for the 'event feed' space
      • [[bluesky]] as compared to [[activitypub]] and [[nostr]]
    • on the pitfalls of being in a small [[mastodon]] instance
      • you don't know what you don't know: you'll only see very few hashtags
    • on the fragmentation of the fediverse due to no platform supporting all content types/activities
      • [[mastodon]]
      • [[pixelfed]]
      • [[peertube]]
      • [[write freely]]
    • on what [[wordpress]] managed to pull off
      • [[automattic]]
      • on the [[tumblr]] [[activitypub]] promise
    • [[ca]]
      • [[micro.blog]] is a good social reader for reading blogs, mastodon, etc.
        • Here's the reader version of my website in micro.blog: https://micro.blog/chrisaldrich@boffosocko.com
      • I'm thinking some of the problems of supporting all the things are related to [[Ross Ashby]]'s law of requisite variety: https://www.edge.org/response-detail/27150
    • on [[adaptive interfaces]]
      • quality that comes out of limitations (e.g. twitter surfacing only a tiny text box to write -- or index cards)
      • ideal writing interfaces?
        • [[twitter]]
        • [[ghost]]
        • [[typora]]
        • [[bear]]
    • [[factr]]
    • [[sweetcron]] https://code.google.com/archive/p/sweetcron/
      • something like this should exist but it doesn't seem like it currently does?
    • [[flancian]] on the idea of the [[signup router]] and integrating activitypub streams onto a higher level 'person' (or circle?) entity
    • [[ca]] I think all the variations of cross-posting and their directionality are documented here: https://indieweb.org/cross-posting
      • Dec 16-17 [[indieweb camp]] in person: https://indieweb.org/2023/SD

[[2023-11-08]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Chris Aldrich]], [[Michael Grossman]]
  • GPTs new feature from open AI
  • https://openai.com/blog/introducing-gpts
    • Aram: Potentially helping out on licencing.
  • Alternative being worked on - https://poe.com/login
    • Can be monitized.
  • OpenAI is crap at billing and that makes accessing new features that are gated behind a payment level hard.
  • https://questy.ai/
  • AI Entrepreneurship
    • https://myhub.ai/
    • Thinking about how to start stuff up around AI and how they can get marketing and startup help.
    • Special interest group of AI entrepreneurs.
    • What do we do with large language models and the brain?
    • [[AI + Knowledge Graphs]]
  • #push [[TheClimateWeb]]
    • Climate Change materials and research in the Brain app - a commercial product.
    • http://www.theclimateweb.com/
  • Climate
    • Chris: Interesting look at some of the problems around informing people and the history here in [[The Parrot and the Igloo: Climate and the Science of Denial]] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56769547-the-parrot-and-the-igloo?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=WHye3QAKxt&rank=1
    • Also check out [[Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming]]
    • Peter: von Humboldt's observation re:climate is ca. 1819. https://blog.biodiversitylibrary.org/2020/10/alexander-von-humboldt.html#:~:text=It%20was%20also%20in%20Cumana,climate%20change%20and%20destroy%20ecosystems
      • Jerry: https://www.alternet.org/2019/09/alexander-von-humboldt-the-first-person-to-understand-climate-change-more-than-200-years-ago
    • Aram: Some explainers I found on this that were pretty good - https://context.center/topics/climate-change/#explainers
      • And a collection on dealing with misinformation - https://context.center/topics/misinformation/#dealing-with-misinformation
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol pull
    • https://www.versobooks.com/products/2649-how-to-blow-up-a-pipeline
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monkey_Wrench_Gang pull
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Attali pull
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia pull
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike pull
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain pull
    • Good on blair mountain - https://youtu.be/CGGWcFArufA?si=dFZH_Y1ngppfvTWR
  • https://www.gawker.com/politics/the-joe-manchin-trolley-problem
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(historical_analysis) pull

[[2023-10-18]]

• Attending: [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Bentley Davis]], [[Eduardo Ivanec]]
  • Possible projects
    • [[social rerere]]
    • [[knowledge commons]] extension for [[obsidian]], [[vscode]]
      • lets you hook up vaults/repos with e.g. [[massive wiki]], [[agora]], other projects in this space.
    • [[plugins]] are the way to go
    • [[chris aldrich]] if you can put together something that solves 'publishing' for free (obsidian sync-like)
  • We had a 'split community' situation today because of Jitsi + Meet
    • We'll be converging onto Zoom from now on for a few iterations as Jitsi is not working great sometimes, and Meet doesn't support recordings
    • Expect the link to be:
  • More on sync
    • [[synthing]] works quite well with obsidian, and is non-tech-user-friendly
  • [[neobooks]] next week
    • on transclusion: https://prosefusion.cloud/git_and_github_notes/pete's_git_tips_and_tricks/git_tips_and_tricks
    • looking forward to write!

[[2023-10-11]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Samuel Klein]]
  • context.center has gotten hooked up successfully with the Agora!
    • differences with linebreak interpretations
    • Interesting to see a paywalled personal wiki - https://wiki.nikiv.dev/web/search-engines pull
    • B/c Agora is not looking at JSON it doesn't pull in the archived articles, but that's ok it prob shouldn't.
  • discussing #PAIN ~ [[public ai network]] ~ https://publicai.network/
    • (missed the beginning)
    • [[metasj]] mix of closed and open models
      • half of the project is to create a shared vocabulary; half is putting together the community (incl. public institutions) to build a commons
      • national models -- e.g. gpt-sw3
      • [[aram zucker-scharff]] hadn't heard of these national models/sweden case, would love to read more about that
      • [[pk]] + [[metasj]] https://www.ai.se/en/node/81535/gpt-sw3
      • [[aram zucker-scharff]] on the potential of public data loss
  • what else do we want to take on today?
    • [[flancian]] [[neobooks]]
    • extending the [[102 great ideas]] project and other friendly-parasitical (symbiotic) projects
    • or extending [[pattern language]]
      • [[metasj]] [[patternity test]] https://wiki.c2.com/?PatternityTest pull
      • [[Adler]] | [[Alexander]] | [[Gunkel]]
      • [[dewey system]] for pattern languages?
        • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Decimal_Classification pull replaces it?
        • [[metasj]]
          • there's an initiative to normalize the UDC and have it replace the DDS in the US
          • even people at WorldCat are thinking about it (and they're not particularly bias-free)
          • [[bruck fikru]]
    • [[jerry michalski]] what about the decolonizing version of [[102 great ideas]]
      • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Otlet pull
    • [[peter kaminski]] current LLM corpuses are large but not very inclusive of libraries
    • are people working towards getting national libraries into LLMs?
      • a lot of things are not yet scanned
      • which proportion made it already?
      • on the titanic battle brewing over copyright/ip
      • see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Wars_(film) pull
  • on the legal battles that are coming
    • [[pk]] think they might peter out / be settled in private
      • on the possible outcome being [[pay to play]] / [[open ai]] pulling the ladder (and complaining while they do it)
    • [[mistral]]
    • [[brainstorming]] [[open letters]] ;)

[[2023-09-27]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Chris Aldrich]]
• On traffic controllers and Reagan
  • Ongoing strikes: writers, actors. There is high public approval for these.
  • On the sustainability of the GOP being anti-labour.
  • How did the republicans end up being middle-america/"popular" and the democrats end up being "intellectual"?
  • What about some new parties for a change ;)
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] https://twitter.com/bcmerchant/status/1706898148692762627 pull - discussion about luddism in hackernews
  • On coopting the language of labour.
  • [[the making of donald trump]] mentions [[4000 lawsuits]].
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] on the weird hybrid of [[obamacare]] and the so called [[death panels]]
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_panel pull
    • do we need a 'media drumbeat' to push back against this kind of thing?
    • where?
  • on the take "[[podcasts]] have become right wing media"
    • content policies are harder to enforce in audio land as it's easy to distribute (unlike video) and not too easy to parse/consume/detect (unlike text) (for now?).
  • [[vtaiwan]]
    • to reduce flamewars, they removed the reply feature (!)
    • [[chris aldrich]] on newspapers removing comments sections -- and their history.
      • [[free speech]] vs [[free reach]]
      • https://www.wired.com/story/free-speech-is-not-the-same-as-free-reach/
    • [[aram]] actually users are still really engaged with comments sections -- the reason that most publishers took them down was the moderation burden
      • comments-to-article pipelines were working quite well when they were being run
    • [[flancian]] on the [[moderation commons]]
      • on quote tweets
      • an ongoing proposal: generalizing fediblock
    • [[jerry michalski]]
      • early aol forums
      • name recognition of forum handles
    • [[aram zucker-scharff]]
      • on different approaches to comments
        • [[indieweb]]: you don't have normal replies to a post, you have to create a new post and link it to what you're commenting on
        • [[twitter]] and quote tweets
        • [[activitypub]] and [[mastodon]] design decisions (in particular not supporting)
• [[neobooks]]
  • one of Jerry's collaborators uses google docs instead of obsidian
  • [[chris aldrich]] how do you leave signposts to see resources elsewhere? e.g. in wikipedia, in an agora, etc.
  • [[jerry michalski]] maintains a neighborhood visibility aspect in his brain
  • [[chris aldrich]] [[zettelkasten]] has this in the sense of always having physical neighbors to the current index card
  • [[102 great ideas]] https://boffosocko.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/102-Ideas.jpg
  • [[great books of the western world]] https://books.google.com/books?id=p0gEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA92&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false
  • on feeding the [[noosphere]]
    • is it a good term?
• Check ins
• Shared projects
  • #push [[fotl projects]]
    • [[intertwingle]] our notes together
    • write [[neobooks]]

[[2023-09-20]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Peter Kaminski]]

• Check ins

  • [[Jerry Michalski]] would be interested in being hired for more presentations/speeches
    • On [[cyborg]] as a term, some people apparently object to the term?
    • ([[Jitsi]] melted down at this point)
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] on [[Cyborgness]] - video cued to the specific part of the discusion - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvYcunuF3Eo&t=1709s
    • On babies reaching into ipads
    • [[digital retinas]]

• Useful open source video editing with

  • [[OpenShot]] - https://www.openshot.org/
  • avidemux
  • Drop into Quicktime

• [[flancian]] presentation (maybe): https://anagora.org/go/agora-slides pull

  • three facets
    • a space - the definition of an agora the one best known
      • public, mostly virtual, but has semi public sub-spaces (stoas). Different groups met in the different spaces and allowed people to join in and be part of something.
      • Go beyond the commons concern of the market
    • A distributed knowledge graph
      • Give it a list or repositories or resources and the agora will try to mash them together, find connections, find patterns, connect them.
    • A social network
      • an integration between social graphs and knowledge graphs and hopefully will make it part of the fediverse and t/f give it a clearer part of the social network concept.
  • Both a vision and a hypothesis
    • pro-social subsets of the internet would benefit from wide availability of a free [[interlay]] (as in the [[underlay project]]) provisioned and governed by a community as a commons.
    • For the common good.
    • Follow the principles of a commons.
    • Develop tools and instructions to make it more likely that such a connective layer arrises with these characteristics.
    • The agora is not good enough yet to be the connective layer but aims to be a bootstrap.
  • Note taking, wiki building, web annotating, communities, seem to have unique opportunity at hand. Possible to self-organize in cooperative groups and set up ways to federate within a commons.
  • Find common patterns and exploit them using the system where we can.
  • Design principles
    • Simple as possible
    • Leverage existing conventions and formats
    • bootstrap and build better ones from the bootstrap
  • Key characteristics
    • free software enabling a community to provision a basic knowledge commons
    • requires little of would be integrators and give back generously to participating communities.
    • inclusive and makes use of existing conventions, formats, tools, and networks for as long as practical.
  • Architecture
    • Agora Bridge
      • Software
      • User repositories
      • Social media
      • ...
      • Imports users' repositories every 30s and handles them. Usually git. Takes MassiveWiki and Social Media
    • Agora root repository
      • List of repositories
      • Configuration and bootstrap procedures
      • Base content
    • Agora Server
      • Software
      • Web interface
      • Interlink procedures
      • Accessed by browser
      • Python and Flask server
      • Points to a root repository and with those resources attempt to find the patterns and pull out nodes which then get served to the user.
      • May present notes on the same node by different users across different contexts.
  • Node
    • High level entity
    • Location on the knowledge graph
    • Can hold information from multiple users and join different files
    • Node can have Subnodes by different authors.
    • Links in Nodes will be seen and link those nodes together at the Agora level.
    • Nodes are social
    • See anagora.org/nodes for visualization
    • Common patterns:
      • [[Digital Garden Note]]
      • [[Blog Post]]
      • [[Personal Wiki Page]]
      • [[Journal]]
      • [[Node Club]]
    • You can agree on a slice for a concept and then right away start coordinating - exactly like using a hashtag
      • Socail media works with hashtags to integrate into this concept.
      • Agora lets you hashtag anywhere
  • Stoas
    • Social too
    • Locaitons that act as semi public spaces
    • Set up a hedge doc that is totally anonymous.
    • Will get processed into the Angora within 30 sec.
    • Etherpad and Jitsi both can get pulled in to a Stoas.
  • Heavily uses iFrames whenever possible
  • Default empty pages are a call to action
  • How to join!
    • Take notes in your fav tool
    • Publish in platform - usually git.
    • Let an Agora maintainer know about it.
  • Wikilinks everywhere
    • Edges are [[wikilinks]] which refer to other nodes as found in volunteered subnodes
  • Idea of composing notes
    • Some notes have special behavior
    • [[go]] notes - #go url or [[go/foo]]
    • [[pull]] - bring in the resource at bar with #pull bar
    • [[push]] - push out the resource to foo with #push foo

[[2023-09-06]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Chris Aldrich]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[David Pickrell]], [[Flancian]], [[Michael Grossman]]
• Introductions
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
    • Lead engineering for years on [[Pressforward]]
    • tool making experience as it interacts with the indyweb
    • current project: how we link note tools together. personally using [[eleventy]] based [[context.center]]
  • [[Flancian]]
    • welcome [[David]]!
    • SRE by profession here, knowledge commons/graphs tinkerer by hobby :)
    • [[agora]] ~ https://anagora.org pull is my main project in this space
  • [[Michael Grossman]]
    • designer - editor - archivist - activist
    • interested in [[information meritocracy]]
    • working on a platform named [[factor]]
    • hanging out in [[ogm]] for a while
    • https://factr.com
    • https://collaborative.tech
    • worked in magazines previously
      • maybe the [[20th century]] was the [[magazine century]] -- there weren't many before then, and it looks like there won't be many after it
  • [[David Pickrell]]
    • itinerant "software salesman" :)
    • focused on helping people solve problems with software
    • one pitch for the group: son-in-law works on book.io which is a publishing environment that tries to empower authors
      • unique covers for each of the books (NFT space, in the cardano chain)
      • they release unique digital books at 20-30 USD a piece
      • moving to do audio
    • long time [[brain]] user
• What's on people's minds?
  • [[Michael Grossman]] curious to ask David about book.io -- there are public domain works with many covers, how does that work?
    • artists working with GenAI
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] is book.io a scarcity play or a publisher which is trying to be useful to creators?
    • it tries to be the second
    • targets mostly self-publishing authors currently
    • every time a book gets resold, the author gets a percentage
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
    • write professionally, would like to use editors more, and would not like to use them for free.
    • would like to use such a platform to give participating editors a cut of produced works.
  • [[Chris Aldrich]]
    • reviewed some books in book.io
      • there is no translator information for translations of public domain books, e.g. [[anna karenina]]
• Presentation on the Agora?
  • 20th of September -- the date is set! :D
• Fediverse and Agora integration in the works
  • note taking in the fediverse: exploring this space
  • [[AZS]] don't know anything in this space.
    • obsidian can push to the agora, then the agora can provide activitypub services
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] there is potential for UI innovation in this space, something beyond streams
  • wikilinks everywhere :D
• [[does chatgpt obsolete notetaking]]
  • [[AZS]] typical AI-disruption-take.
    • These are tools for thinking and not just for ingestion.
    • our computers/mobile phones already turn us into cyborgs; AI just adds another layer to this
    • human intervention is what gives these things/outputs a value
  • [[CA]] note taking is a ratchet
    • "chat-gpt, build me something like the ethereum network to distribute books"
      • we're not anywhere near there yet.
      • "what is the next thing", in the sense of Einstein in 1904, is not something that this level of AI can solve.
    • [[JM]] unclear on whether LLMs can only regurgigate known things or can actually improve on them -- compare with e.g. alphago coming up with novel moves
  • [[Michael Grossman]] podcast: https://a16z.simplecast.com/episodes/a-true-second-brain-xrODaBD2
    • on [[Nat Eliason]]
    • being able to take notes over years and put them into a model which you can then query/search
    • a certain type of note taking will be much more useful than in the old days
    • surfacing the note that somebody you trust has shared with you is what's golden
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] when Google came out, we outsourced our memories to Google
    • proponent of humans-in-the-loop
    • [[AZS]] [[technology is a tool, not an outcome]]
  • [[David Pickrell]] recording/transcription services you can add to meetings.
    • using [[ChatGPT]] can help get a sense of material but might not help actually learn that material
    • [[JM]] [[story threads]]
  • [[AZS]] wikipedia is essentially the biggest collection of knowledge, yet people also get degrees
• chat / link dump
  • https://medium.com/intelliboosters/is-tiago-fortes-build-a-second-brain-still-relevant-in-the-age-of-chatgpt-b7a7c5e8637c
  • https://youtu.be/UvYcunuF3Eo?si=_rabLEL9qXVcg1sB
  • https://pressforward.org/

[[2023-08-30]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Chris Aldrich]], [[Flancian]], [[Samuel Klein]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Michael Grossman]]
• Check ins

  • [[Chris Aldrich]]

    • Took the full July off and did a family cruise to Alaska :)
    • Not as rainy as expected, gorgeous scenery
    • Q: did you keep a journal/notebook?
    • A: did, but haven't done anything with it yet

  • [[Jerry Michalski]] One question that came up in a recent conversation: now that AI is around, do we need to still bother to take notes/curate links? :)

    • Yes :D
    • [[Chris Aldrich]] AI as it is now is interesting but it lacks:
      • a [[compass]].
      • a [[ratchet]].
        • it can aggregate/conglomerate but it won't choose a solution or direction for you.

  • [[Flancian]]

    • Read [[Engelbart]] over the summer and it was very interested in the context of GenAI developments/this conversation
      • https://social.coop/@flancian/110720124777315271 pull
      • Augmenting Human Intellect: A Conceptual Framework By Douglas C. Engelbart October 1962
        • https://via.hypothes.is/https://dougengelbart.org/content/view/138 (Copy with Hypothesis annotations)

  • [[Samuel Klein]]

    • [[e. e. kim]]]
    • on the potential of [[marginalia]] and [[inter-linealia]] (?)
    • Purple numbers: https://eekim.com/software/purple/purple.html
    • and the use of color maybe?
      • culturally dependent
      • #JM uses purple for opinions and yellow to call attention to things

• Topics

[[2023-08-16]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[V]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Michael Grossman]]
• Check ins
  • Welcome [[V]]!
    • [[V]] loves federated systems, has been building those since the 2000s/2010s
      • Neighbours with Jerry!
  • [[Michael Grossman]]
    • Doing well
    • Thoughts on living on confiscated land
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • On the concept of [[wokeness]] as it's weaponized by the right
    • Worried about how the concept of [[woke]] is maybe seen as toxic also by some progressives now?
    • On the "anti-reclaiming" of terms
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
    • On providing sources and timelines relevant to things
    • As a way to reverse [[context collapse]] and how it relates to the goals of the fellowship
  • [[Flancian]]
    • On the [[Agora]] as a prototype for "simply" federating ideas and definitions
    • And precisely to push back against concept collapse and understand our points of contact and also of divergence
  • [[V]]
    • This conversation reminds me of [[dialectics]]
    • The Agora can be seen as a tool to enable dialectics (thesis antithesis synthesis) / help communities go through this process
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • [[argumentation theory]] maybe generalizes this
    • other tools in the [[debate]] space
  • [[Flancian]] on agreeing on definitions and more generally on procedures to resolve definitions
    • Maybe on defining a [[default commons]] as an advantage for a group that tries this
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
    • The libertarian concept of finding an answer is what we get by default nowadays: different websites compete to provide the "best answer"
    • But there is more than one answer to each problem based on context/expected use
    • [[V]] on contextual ranking in the Agora: ranking results based on relevance for your social context
    • Maybe thinking of [[positive opt-in community filter bubbles]]
  • [[Michael Grossman]]
    • On delegating filtering to friends/communities as it relates to [[liquid democracy]]
    • On [[owning your social graph]]
• on [[liquid democracy]] :)
  • https://bra.in/9jYawA
  • https://anagora.org/liquid-democracy pull
  • [[colorado]] experiment
  • on its potential side effects:
    • [[depolarization]]
    • promoting higher dimensionality thinking
    • promoting thinking about interesting problems in categories
    • promoting thinking about relative expertise of individuals
• [[Jerry Michalski]]
  • on [[yelling louder]] "forcing the stack"
  • on [[darvo]]
    • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
      • ah, this is just fascist politicking as defined in stuff like https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism
      • [[small government]] usually means withdrawing support from causes
• [[Jerry Michalski]] on [[five minute universities]]
  • lightning classes: 5 minutes for presenting, 5 minutes for questions, follow up conversation happens later
  • video on [[the great transformation]]
  • Jerry Michalski says: https://bra.in/2qa2BE
  • Interested in making timelines with 11ty? [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] is looking for testers of https://github.com/AramZS/timelinety based on https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

[[2023-08-09]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Michael Grossman]]
• [[climate change]]
  • https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2023/08/02/southamerica-record-winter-heat-argentina-chile/
  • [[global citizenship]]
    • prepare now to give climate refugees: an identity, a nationality, internet connection, internet services
    • what does citizenship mean now and in the future?
    • snow crash vs star trek
    • cory doctorow's [[walkaway]]
      • also [[catalog of missing devices]]
    • on modelling solutions to big problems
    • https://blogs.worldbank.org/dev4peace/how-many-years-do-refugees-stay-exile
      • on averages
        • [[The End of Average]]: How We Succeed in a World That Values Sameness (2016)
        • on (jet) fighter seats
        • on the old belief that people used to live very little
    • on cancers :(
      • When did people start understanding what cancer was?
        • https://chat.openai.com/share/3d3e3f93-9449-420a-914f-bc27c4912a49

          In the late 1850's, "Virchow was the first to correctly link the origin of cancers from otherwise normal cells, believing that cancer is caused by severe irritation in the tissues (the ‘chronic irritation theory’). Not all of his work was correct, however. He also proposed that cancer spreads around the body by the spread of the irritation in liquid form."

        • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5665122/)
• [[flancian]] progress on https://link.agor.ai -- ready for your perusal and/or joining :)
• how do we take the outputs of all the calls we're in and do more with them?
  • [[peter kaminski]] working on some automation for downloading e.g. zoom call logs
  • Vincent (who?) is working in this space as well
  • [[dogsheep]] and tools to help users get out of [[walled gardens]]
• [[peter kaminski]] some links to share and a question :)
• Stowe Boyd has gotten deep into [[Obsidian]]: https://medium.com/workings/more-on-tufte-style-sidenotes-db61d3d8dce0

| | Openness | How well does it play with other tools? How interoperable and customisable is it? | F/OSS. Use open standards. Has an API. Import/Export Allow 3rd party plugins. Available on all OSs, platforms. Supports structured data | | Note-making | How good is it as a note-making tool? | Good outliner (easy indent/outdent, reorder, fold/zoom...) Atomic note structure, block references. Zettlekasten support. | | Writing/Publishing | How good is it as a writing & publishing tool? | WYSIWYG, zen writing environment/design, editing feature set, seamless publishing system to Web, Social. | | Idea discovery | Does it help users organise and (re)discover relevant notes? | Backlinks, Good search, AI-driven content discovery | | User-friendliness | How easy is it to start benefiting from it, off the shelf? | New user can get started and get benefits without taking courses, reading 3 books and 23 blog posts, or installing a dozen plugins | | Power | How powerful, adaptable & configurable is it? | Lots of features, highly customisable, many plug-ins, queryable knowledge, etc. | | Multiplayer | Allows teamwork | Group-based collaboration: groups, permissions, workflows, version control, commenting, moderation... | | Help | Is it easy to find high-quality documentation and answers to common questions? | Well-organised onboarding, documentation & FAQ system. | | Community | Is there a supportive community around the tool | Helpful community, active 3rd party developers, etc. | | Cost | How expensive is the tool | Free, or at least a v. useful free version in a freemium model | | Data sovereignty | Who owns your data? | Your files on your PC. | 20:35 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:BlueSky protocol 20:35 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:oops wrong paste Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://kolektiva.social/about

20:36 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/10-18-2022-the-at-protocol

20:37 me says: ctzn.one -- now down probably 20:37 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Paul Frazee? 20:38 me says:yes: http://anagora.org/pfrazee pull

20:39 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://paulfrazee.medium.com/back-to-basics-what-is-the-point-of-decentralization-a495123a1fd7

Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://context.center/topics/cryptocurrency/#activity-pub

20:41 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:small note: I'm Twitter user # 509 Jerry Michalski says:when it was just an SMS service 😃 20:43 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:😃 20:43 me says:Pleroma me says:Lemmy me says:Misskey? 20:44 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://github.com/misskey-dev/misskey

Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://twitter.com/Chronotope/status/1587511147137486848 pull

20:45 me says:some interesting questions in this space: me says:1. what is the biggest overall activitypub instance? me says:2. what is the biggest which isn't mastodon based? 20:46 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:I think mastodon.social is the largest instance 20:46 me says:3. how large could a non-mastodon instance feasibly scale up to be currently? 20:46 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:advertising is the colonizing force of capitalism in internet spaces 20:47 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:Like cohost.org is sort of pushing in that direction as well Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://pinboard.in/ also sort of monetizes that way 20:48 me says: https://social.coop

20:48 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:guilds --> unions Jerry Michalski says:mutual aid --> cooperatives 20:50 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4467218-travelling-brothers?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=wM2PoCC5zD&rank=12 ? 20:51 me says:anti disintermediation me says:crypto is a convoluted way to define a trust root (in most applications, it seems) me says:"what are the platforms and protocols that we will take for granted 100 years from now" me says:counter anti disintermediation 😉 me says:citation needed 😉 20:54 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:full title: Travelling Brothers: The Six Centuries' Road from Craft Fellowship to Trade Unionism (1979) Jerry Michalski says:A Collective Bargain: Unions, Organizing, and the Fight for Democracy (2020) ? 20:55 me says: flancia.org/mine/flanbook is a bit about this -- coopting the machinery of capitalism for the purpose of advancing the revolution 20:56 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:oooo! 20:56 me says:commons me says:enclosure of the commons == another manifestation of capitalist colonization 20:57 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:my notes from this call: https://bra.in/3pWnJo

20:58 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:Ah i was thinking of Fight Like Hell by Kim Kelly Aram Zucker-Scharff says:I'll read that! :walking:

2022-06-24

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[flancian]]

Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9aRBtTqLjw

Notes

• Discussion of [[go links]]
  • Demo in anagora.org :)
  • [[go/fotl/chat]] and [[go/fellowship of the link/chat]] both now work
• Time?
  • 11am Pacific on Fridays?
    • Could conflict with date nights in Europe :)
  • [[11am Pacific on Thursdays]]?
    • Let's try this!
• [[shared resources]]
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] putting up something in the site
    • add a go link :)
  • here's what we're doing, here's where we're going, here is how to join
  • let's use [[chat]] for coordinating
• what's a high leverage topic for the three of us?
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] what's pareto optimal/the 20% we could tackle first?
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] has been working on a [[shared vision]]
  • [[flancian]] [[2025]]
• [[Jerry Michalski]]
  • how to build a "webring" for meetings, documents about projects
  • [[obsidian]] with [[excalidraw]] done by a friend
    • diagrams.net is also good
  • [[open global mind]] ~ [[ogm]]
    • [[flotilla]] -> [[federation]]
    • what do you see from the top of your mast?
    • [[multi plane camera]]
    • [[map of the future]] ~ [[mosaic]]
  • [[flancian]] [[agora]] plus iframes for mvp of the above
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] standard based, using each item as a block
    • [[oembed]]?
    • tools tends to target one tool only, lots of duplication
    • [[activitypub]]
      • [[Chris Aldrich]] over designed it, over specified it, few people understand it completely
        • [[aaron parecki]]
      • [[mastodon]] as the de facto standard rather than ActivityPub itself
        • we can bridge to mastodon or pleroma, do not need to reimplement it
      • what about [[rss]]?
        • [[Jerry Michalski]] does this not break transclusion?
        • How can we prevent the unproductive RSS/Atom wars of the early blogosphere?
    • [[Jerry Michalski]] [[least common denominator]]
      • problem or potential?
      • [[tbl]] simplified [[sgml]] and made it break gracefully
      • [[resiliency]]
    • [[cory doctorow]] on the [[tragedy of the commons]]
      • [[modus operandi]] and [[throughput]] amazing
      • [[Chris Aldrich]]: cory has a [[commonplace book]] essentially, see https://pluralistic.net/2021/01/13/two-decades/
      • [[flancian]]
        • [[adversarial interoperability]] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interoperability
        • [[catalog of missing devices]]
• from chat unprocesssed
  • Jerry Michalski dice:transclusion
  • Chris Aldrich dice:How to create a Read Fork Write Merge Web?

2022-06-17

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[metasj]], [[Mathew Lowry]], [[flancian]]
• (joined late) (chat history)
  • https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/semmy-social-knowledge-fabrics/2248
  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plYobK-VufM
  • https://docs.ipfs.io/how-to/pin-files/ pull
  • https://bra.in/3vPgD9
• [[Jerry Michalski]] and [[mathew]] on [[medium]]
• #push [[Mathew Lowry's chapter]] for [[pkg book]]
  • https://mathewlowry.medium.com/from-personal-to-social-knowledge-graphs-a-vision-statement-draft-fc86ef4f7022
  • outsourcing commenting to [[hypothesis]]
  • [[web annotation standard]]
  • [[activitypub]]
  • [[activitypub]] to [[web annotation standard]] bridge?
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] [[nuggets]] in the [[big fungus]]
  • [[Mathew Lowry]] [[nuggets]] as cross-linked executive summaries
• [[fediverse]]
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] what's the simplest possible example to get going on comments and annotations on the fediverse?
  • what would be the mvp?
    • [[mastodon]] server?
    • [[mattermost]] channel
    • how to [[interlink]]?
• [[metasj]]
  • challenge: take a [[global commons]] that you care aobut, and scope out its potential full extent
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] take a [[pattern language]] that already exist
    • (lists three)
      • [[liberating structures]]
        • https://www.liberatingstructures.com/1-1-2-4-all/
      • Peeragogy
      • Wise Democracy Pattern Language
      • chat bots: [[five whys]]
    • ...and turn them into [[commons]] shared materials and instrument
    • [[pattern languages]] == [[distilled wisdom]]
    • from patterns to praxis
    • a platform for pattern languages: this was tried on top of [[mediawiki]] [[smw]]
      • [[metasj]] [[wikibase]] >> [[smw]]
    • [[instrumentalize]] > [[instrument]]?
      • Integrate
      • Arborize
      • what's the verb when mycelium sprouts a mushroom?
      • [[fruiting]]
    • [[metasj]] tried to put [[ward]] and [[alexander]] in contact to discuss agreeing on a platform
    • [[Jerry Michalski]] [[engelbart]] struggled with this
    • a strategy to make everybody facilitating facilitations a better facilitator
    • leads to a global memory artifact
  • [[mathew]] what's the end goal of this envisioning/scoping exercise?
    • [[metasj]] a couple of measures of scope:
      • proportion of total human societal interaction affected in a given year
      • [[Jerry Michalski]] (ways of measuring global impact)
      • empowering people
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] [[applause in sign language]]
    • used in [[occupy movement]]
    • other gestures used: disagree, blocking, speak louder
    • [[flancian]] related: [[free, fair and alive]] [[anarchist cybernetics]]
    • [[reading club]] on [[dawn of everything]] in [[ogm]]
      • -> [[node club]]
  • [[Mathew Lowry]]
    • tools to better capture knowledge produced from conferences/workshops and share it with the world
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] [[idea commons]]
    • pastors.com is where a lot of evangelical preachers get what they say on Sundays (!)
    • open source sermon central
  • [[flancian]]
    • pattern repository, people router
    • alternatives
  • [[flancian]]
    • [[counter anti disintermediation]] leading back to distributed systems and liquid democracy
      • maybe could yield a metric w.r.t. degree of distrubution of structures of power
    • [[complementary cognitive artifacts]]
      • maybe yields a metric w.r.t. resiliency to losing
    • composed effects of higher efficiency in cooperation, [[coordination problem]]
  • chat
    • unschooling, regenerative agriculture, traffic calming...
    • ice:bootstrapping: ways to make people vectors for a new approach
    • patterning: process for helping people abstract their work to its full potential extent
    • which will usually overlap w/ the full-extent of other existing/smaller patterns
    • matchmaking: people who could work on the same vectors
    • https://www.clearerthinking.org/
• [[action items]]
  • [[flancian]]
    • upload past recording to youtube
• [[metasj]] and [[flancian]] 1:1
  • [[building bridges]], [[wormholes]]
  • [[workshops]] and [[facilitating]] of world building
  • [[future casting]] -> [[incepting]]
  • [[wikimedia]] + [[web annotations]]
    • [[diego de la hera]]
    • there is an extension that makes them worked well together
    • how does the community moderate annotations?
    • [[flancian]] default: the site sets the default ranking function for annotations. and perhaps some annotations are community owned, wiki like?

2022-06-09

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[diego de la hera]], [[flancian]], [[Chris Aldrich]]
• Inviting others
  • [[flancian]] been inviting people already, but would be like to use some kind of policy?
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] suggest to use the Mattermost to coordinate; use this space to consider together our goals and attract others like this
    • [[mattermost]] https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/ogm-fellowship-of-the-link
  • let's use the list of people in the [[doc]] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RAourQe_MKh0uWomLsS_V5ea3zm30g8paE49X56jIHs/edit pull
    • to brainstorm on who to invite if you want to discuss a priori
  • [[flancian]] invited Dan because of his interested in the space + his experience with web standards
• [[Jerry Michalski]]
  • [[web]] https://www.fellowshipofthelink.org/
  • who wants admin? :)
    • 0@flancia.org
    • delahera@gmail.com
    • christopherjaldrich@gmail.com
  • we could also start groups in social networks, e.g. linkedin
    • [[flancian]] [[mastodon]]?
    • got stuck in [[choosing an instance]]
      • [[diego de la hera]] mastodon.social could be seen as the default
      • (instance delegation could be interesting, web of trust like)
      • http://www.unmung.com/mastoview is a tool for helping to choose Mastondon instances
    • [[diego de la hera]] lack of defaults as a hindrance to adoption here, in the indieweb as well
    • [[Jerry Michalski]] [[barry schwartz]] https://bra.in/4jXVP2
      • [[the tyranny of choice]]
      • [[schelling point]]
    • [[Chris Aldrich]] with more choice you usually get increasing complexity
      • you are given so much choice it's almost too much (in the indieweb)
      • [[Jerry Michalski]] templates, walkthroughs add a lot of value
      • [[Chris Aldrich]] you need either a lot of time or people motivated because they're building business
      • [[peter kaminski]] introduced [[Jerry Michalski]] to [[obsidian]]
      • on straightforward vs powerful tools
      • [[diego de la hera]] on the power of forks
        • e.g. [[Chris Aldrich]]'s setup is something we could fork to bootstrap a new user's environment
        • people have copy/pasted Chris's website already, full pages at a time :)
    • [[flancian]] [[map of the fediverse]]
• longer term goals / brainstorming / dream sharing
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • series of projects revolving around these issues
      • [[open global mind]], started 2y ago
        • part of a [[flotilla]] with other organizations
        • 8am pacific, standing call for [[ogm]]
      • [[rel8]]
        • why is it so hard to share, integrate notes -- build arguments?
          • -> [[argument mapping]]?
          • [[argumentation theory]]
          • [[stephen toulmin]] -> [[toulmin model of argument]]
        • [[the big fungus]] == https://thebigfungus.org
        • interested in the scaffolding, infrastructure to share ideas
      • [[think camp]] funds startups in this space
        • "profitable businesses that feed the [[commons]]"
    • read an interesting article today, conservative point of view with good arguments even though some disagreeable premises
      • how do we put this article up to scrutiny and learn from it together?
        • -> [[web annotations]]?
        • [[gyuri lajos]]
          • [[Jerry Michalski]] let's have a group sync with Gyuri?
          • [[Chris Aldrich]] trails are related to [[vannevar bush]]'s
    • wishlist for [[fotl]]: how do these parts fit together?
      • how do we make it so that our notes provide maximum utility, spread through the big fungus
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] would like to focus on how to
    • make it all work together
    • make the systems be easy to use
    • make something that is as simple to understand as facebook?
    • I'd like to see [[commonplace books]] that can "talk" to each other.
    • "the [[stream]] flows by too fast"
      • turning streams into gardens
      • [[neil]] from the Agora has great writing on streams vs gardens, how they relate to each other - https://doubleloop.net/
• [[john borthwick]] at [[betaworks]] has funding for small projects [[think camp]]
• Watch parties
  • [[connection series]]
    • watch these, take notes/diagrams and share/interop
    • -> [[books, paintings, movies, ideas that shaped many people's lives]]
      • https://bra.in/5pxdW6
  • [[dan whaley]] youtube annotations are a side project / hobby
    • [[docdrop]] https://docdrop.org/ pull
• [[diego de la hera]]
  • web annotations were mentioned; thought of two connections
    • [[peter hagen]] -> [[lindylearn]] https://lindylearn.io/ and specifically https://annotations.lindylearn.io/new/
      • social platform where you would find what other people are annotating and join the conversation
      • provides a discovery layer for what others are reading and thinking about
    • [[chrome]] is also tackling annotations
    • [[worldbrain]], [[memex]]?
    • it seems like here we want to work more on the level of how to connect different annotation tools at a (federated?) layer
      • perhaps what we need is an integration device at this layer, e.g. [[wikilinks]]
• Timing
• After the event, [[Mathew Lowry]]: https://doc.anagora.org/Kz1qvywQRjq9nZ-ElXlHUg?view pull

Matterbridge site for group communication: https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/tips

https://collectivesensecommons.org/

Mathew Lowry mentioned [[Mysilio]]

• https://github.com/mysilio-co
• (https://mysilio.com/) a "thinking tool"/platform that uses [[Solid]] - funded by [[Foundation for the Web]]; has a social media tool and a digital garden

[[David McRaney]] (twitter) has several books:

• [[How Minds Change]] #books/wanttoread/2
• [[You're Not So Smart]] #books/wanttoread/2
• [[You are Now Less Dumb]]

2022-06-02

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[diego de la hera]], [[flancian]], [[Chris Aldrich]]
• Our personal history
  • Diego en Córdoba
  • Jerry Michalski pasos por sudamérica, ahora en Portland
  • Eduardo de Buenos Aires, ahora en Suiza
• Relationships locally and globally
• Jerry: [[open global mind]] meeting just before
  • Send email to sociate@gmail.com to sign up :)
• ([[Chris Aldrich]] joined, introductions)
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • [[the brain]]
    • [[chris]] any shares in the company?
    • not anymore
    • do you have backups?
    • occasionally :) but the format is a big bag of [[json]] objects, not bery interoperable
      • wishlist: [[open global mind]] platform instead
  • [[diego de la hera]]
    • hypothes.is user, contributor as the maintainer of the unofficial extension for firefox; working with [[wikimedia foundation]]
    • met Chris through hypothes.is
  • [[Chris Aldrich]]
    • background: biomedical and electrical engineer, been on the web since the early 90s
    • [[indieweb]] / https://indieweb.org
    • [[open web backup]], strong belief in owning your own domain, your own data, your own identity
    • done work on genetics, but germane: spent a lot of time in the [[entertainment industry]] as it overlaps with the open web
    • massive amount of data
    • history, culture as intertwined with knowledge tools
    • current focus on wikis and note taking tools
• [[Jerry Michalski]] wishful thinking for a design in this space
  • it should allow all users to view data through their chosen tools
  • sometimes you change tools as you shift what you need to do (they are good at different modes of thinking)
  • [[planes]]
    • [[multi plane camera]], [[disney history]]
      • similar to layers in photoshop/gimp
    • bought https://www.playnz.dev
  • [[kumu]] == https://kumu.io
    • is it open source?
  • [[jupyter notebooks]] are an inspiration
  • https://thebigfungus.org
    • [[leaf cutting ants]]
    • ([[diego de la hera]] worked with them)
    • [[symbiotic relationship]] with the fungus
  • [[diego de la hera]] we mentioned a diversity of tools here:
    • closed and open
    • wiki like and otherwise
    • ...but as long as these platforms provide this data in a documented way, do we need a central tool? wouldn't collaboration emerge even without a central tool?
    • [[jerry]] +1 -- the big fungus is a metaphor for the result of this collaboration. But [[playnz]] might be an [[mvp]]/[[demo]] or just an experiment/playground for interoperability.
    • are these tools perhaps already playns?
      • they might be, yes.
    • [[Chris Aldrich]] [[progressive enhancement]] is key
      • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement pull
      • how can we take all these tools and build an architecture that supports progressive enhancement?
      • we start with plain text as the base, then you can add things like markdown/html, then you add photos/media
    • [[flancian]] problems and opportunities:
      • exploring hub architecture vs full graph integration
      • lossiness as you interop through tools, playns
      • complexity of integrations
        • [[Chris Aldrich]] pairwise compatibility is a nightmare
    • [[translation as a service]]
      • [[pandoc]]
      • [[Chris Aldrich]] [[paas]] == [[pandoc as a service]]
    • [[markdown as lingua franca]]
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • [[mapping tools for thinking]] in [[jerry's brain]]
    • also an amazing list of people
    • book: [[the extended mind]]
  • interest in the [[crystallization]] of what we know together
    • contributing to the same lists -> [[collective action]]
    • [[diego de la hera]] the relationship between these efforts and [[wikimedia]] projects
      • [[intermingle]] / preservation of voices
      • [[ward cunningham]]! [[fedwiki]]
      • Ward's calls
    • [[Chris Aldrich]] we should invite [[mark bernstein]], [[tinderbox]]
• [[fellowship of the link]] as it relates to other projects
• [[diego de la hera]] isn't the web as a whole what we need? :)
  • [[html is the lingua franca of our time]]
  • [[web mentions]]
    • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention pull
    • https://brid.gy/
    • [[indieweb]] has examples of this working
      • [[acid test]] of interoperability
      • [[swat0]] https://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0
    • search engine for tagged/linked trusted content
      • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonplace_book pull
      • intimacy gradient
    • [[delicious]]
      • #c19 == [[19th century]]
    • [[technorati]]
• [[lists]] we could assemble:
  • people in this space
    • the above
    • [[tantek Çelik]]
    • "how can we build this with as little technology as possible"
  • projects in this space (knowledge tools)
  • recurrent calls in this space
    • https://lu.ma/toolsforthoughtrocks
  • possible [[lingua francas]]
• [[Chris Aldrich]] "The world lost so much because Vannevar Bush didn't use the word commonplace book in his article As We May Think."
  • how can we take open tools like [[logseq]], or semi-open like [[obsidian]], and create a reusable store
  • [[blot]] == https://blot.im
  • [[granary]] == https://granary.io/ for translating between silo formats as well as feed formats [[rss]], [[atom]], [[h-feed]], [[JSONfeed]], etc.
• https://bra.in/3vGWLa
• https://bra.in/7v2NRe