- a community.
- a meet.
Fellowship of the Link
- a meeting.
- Attending: x, y
- Start recording, we're currently using Jitsi and that works best with a Chromium based browser.
Threads from last time we would like to pick up:
- high leverage opportunities we can spot
- generative commons
- wishlist approach to worldbuilding
Jerry Michalski let's discuss: note sharing.
- Aram Zucker-Scharff let's discuss conventions? Added something in massive wiki.
- Aram Zucker-Scharff would like to generalize the archiving tool / link card generator he's been working on.
- Flancian would like to discuss Interwiki links and the common hub approach for search and entity resolution
- SJ wants to discuss / address this at hacking days at Wikimania in August (you're all invited to Singapore ;) https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2023:Wikimania
- #push fotl threads
- Attending: Aram Zucker-Scharff Bentley Jerry Michalski Flancian Chris Aldrich Michael Grossman
What's on our minds?
- AIs as per the above
- Publishing industry woes
- #JM Books are rollups of nuggets
#CA which licensing are you putting on the books you're writing?
- #JM CC0 is the default
- #CA are you aware of OER: Open Educational Resources?
- design from trust:
- and three-four more :)
- #CA on webmentions as a framework for communicating derivative work -- on getting linkbacks
- flancian webfinger for communicating about users/authors and webmentions for communicating about nuggets?
- #CA marginalia using indieweb: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog
- #JM https://www.workings.tools/p/wonkish-obsidian-footnotes-as-sidenotes
- #CA the great conversation: "the reason you want to read Aristotle and Plato is that they started a conversation we're still having thousands of years later".
- #CA https://mitpressonpubpub.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/syyor4ra/release/1#commentary-and-the-talmud as an exam
- Agora + December Adventure updates
- Attending: Peter Kaminski Aram Zucker-Scharff Chris Aldrich Flancian
- Teaching AI to people.
Got back into NFTs.
- Platform for AI art.
- Some of it rises into fine art territory.
- Thessos hic et nunc thea
question for this group
- looking for a new mastodon server
- flancian likes social.coop :D
chris aldrich have you considered building activitypub into massive wiki?
pk some concerns with how AP works as a protocol, how the community innovates
- nostr seems more promising community wise maybe
- aram zucker-scharff interesting; I like the protocol but never felt like they had any community development
- pk likes the NIPs
- activitypub is more traditional governance wise
- azs interesting, from my perspective it seems like the opposite! take e.g. pixelhub doing independent development of ap
- ca https://phanpy.social/#/universeodon.com/s/111478703259005044?view=full
- ca wordpress is working on being activitypub compatible
- peter kaminski ghost with activitypub seems really nice
- flancian it seems like it is near mainstream.
- azs it seems like it's winning for the 'event feed' space
- bluesky as compared to activitypub and nostr
- pk some concerns with how AP works as a protocol, how the community innovates
on the pitfalls of being in a small mastodon instance
- you don't know what you don't know: you'll only see very few hashtags
- on the fragmentation of the fediverse due to no platform supporting all content types/activities
- on what wordpress managed to pull off
micro.blog is a good social reader for reading blogs, mastodon, etc.
- Here's the reader version of my website in micro.blog: https://email@example.com
- I'm thinking some of the problems of supporting all the things are related to Ross Ashby's law of requisite variety: https://www.edge.org/response-detail/27150
- micro.blog is a good social reader for reading blogs, mastodon, etc.
- on adaptive interfaces
- something like this should exist but it doesn't seem like it currently does?
- flancian on the idea of the signup router and integrating activitypub streams onto a higher level 'person' (or circle?) entity
- ca I think all the variations of cross-posting and their directionality are documented here: https://indieweb.org/cross-posting
Attending: Jerry Michalski, Aram Zucker-Scharff, Peter Kaminski, Chris Aldrich, Michael Grossman
- GPTs new feature from open AI
- Aram: Potentially helping out on licencing.
Alternative being worked on - https://poe.com/login
- Can be monitized.
- OpenAI is crap at billing and that makes accessing new features that are gated behind a payment level hard.
- AI Entrepreneurship
- Climate Change materials and research in the Brain app - a commercial product.
- Chris: Interesting look at some of the problems around informing people and the history here in The Parrot and the Igloo: Climate and the Science of Denial https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56769547-the-parrot-and-the-igloo?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=WHye3QAKxt&rank=1
- Also check out Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming
- Peter: von Humboldt's observation re:climate is ca. 1819. https://blog.biodiversitylibrary.org/2020/10/alexander-von-humboldt.html#:~:text=It%20was%20also%20in%20Cumana,climate%20change%20and%20destroy%20ecosystems
Aram: Some explainers I found on this that were pretty good - https://context.center/topics/climate-change/#explainers
- And a collection on dealing with misinformation - https://context.center/topics/misinformation/#dealing-with-misinformation
- Good on blair mountain - https://youtu.be/CGGWcFArufA?si=dFZH_Y1ngppfvTWR
Attending: Chris Aldrich Jerry Michalski Peter Kaminski, Aram Zucker-Scharff, Bentley Davis, Eduardo Ivanec
- Possible projects
We had a 'split community' situation today because of Jitsi + Meet
- We'll be converging onto Zoom from now on for a few iterations as Jitsi is not working great sometimes, and Meet doesn't support recordings
- Expect the link to be:
More on sync
- synthing works quite well with obsidian, and is non-tech-user-friendly
neobooks next week
- on transclusion: https://prosefusion.cloud/git_and_github_notes/pete's_git_tips_and_tricks/git_tips_and_tricks
- looking forward to write!
Attending: Jerry Michalski, Flancian, Aram Zucker-Scharff, Peter Kaminski, Samuel Klein
context.center has gotten hooked up successfully with the Agora!
- differences with linebreak interpretations
- Interesting to see a paywalled personal wiki - https://wiki.nikiv.dev/web/search-engines
- B/c Agora is not looking at JSON it doesn't pull in the archived articles, but that's ok it prob shouldn't.
discussing #PAIN ~ public ai network ~ https://publicai.network/
- (missed the beginning)
metasj mix of closed and open models
- half of the project is to create a shared vocabulary; half is putting together the community (incl. public institutions) to build a commons
- national models -- e.g. gpt-sw3
- aram zucker-scharff hadn't heard of these national models/sweden case, would love to read more about that
- pk + metasj https://www.ai.se/en/node/81535/gpt-sw3
- aram zucker-scharff on the potential of public data loss
what else do we want to take on today?
- flancian neobooks
- extending the 102 great ideas project and other friendly-parasitical (symbiotic) projects
or extending pattern language
- metasj patternity test https://wiki.c2.com/?PatternityTest
- Adler | Alexander | Gunkel
dewey system for pattern languages?
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Decimal_Classification replaces it?
- there's an initiative to normalize the UDC and have it replace the DDS in the US
- even people at WorldCat are thinking about it (and they're not particularly bias-free)
- bruck fikru
- jerry michalski what about the decolonizing version of 102 great ideas
- peter kaminski current LLM corpuses are large but not very inclusive of libraries
are people working towards getting national libraries into LLMs?
- a lot of things are not yet scanned
- which proportion made it already?
- on the titanic battle brewing over copyright/ip
- see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Wars_(film)
- on the legal battles that are coming
- context.center has gotten hooked up successfully with the Agora!
- Attending: Jerry Michalski, Flancian, Aram Zucker-Scharff, Chris Aldrich
On traffic controllers and Reagan
- Ongoing strikes: writers, actors. There is high public approval for these.
- On the sustainability of the GOP being anti-labour.
- How did the republicans end up being middle-america/"popular" and the democrats end up being "intellectual"?
- What about some new parties for a change ;)
- Aram Zucker-Scharff https://twitter.com/bcmerchant/status/1706898148692762627 - discussion about luddism in hackernews
- On coopting the language of labour.
- the making of donald trump mentions 4000 lawsuits.
Jerry Michalski on the weird hybrid of obamacare and the so called death panels
- do we need a 'media drumbeat' to push back against this kind of thing?
on the take "podcasts have become right wing media"
- content policies are harder to enforce in audio land as it's easy to distribute (unlike video) and not too easy to parse/consume/detect (unlike text) (for now?).
- to reduce flamewars, they removed the reply feature (!)
- chris aldrich on newspapers removing comments sections -- and their history.
aram actually users are still really engaged with comments sections -- the reason that most publishers took them down was the moderation burden
- comments-to-article pipelines were working quite well when they were being run
flancian on the moderation commons
- on quote tweets
- an ongoing proposal: generalizing fediblock
- early aol forums
- name recognition of forum handles
- aram zucker-scharff
- one of Jerry's collaborators uses google docs instead of obsidian
- chris aldrich how do you leave signposts to see resources elsewhere? e.g. in wikipedia, in an agora, etc.
- jerry michalski maintains a neighborhood visibility aspect in his brain
- chris aldrich zettelkasten has this in the sense of always having physical neighbors to the current index card
- 102 great ideas https://boffosocko.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/102-Ideas.jpg
- great books of the western world https://books.google.com/books?id=p0gEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA92&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false
on feeding the noosphere
- is it a good term?
- Check ins
- Shared projects
- Jerry Michalski would be interested in being hired for more presentations/speeches
Aram Zucker-Scharff on Cyborgness - video cued to the specific part of the discusion - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvYcunuF3Eo&t=1709s
- On babies reaching into ipads
- digital retinas
Useful open source video editing with
a space - the definition of an agora the one best known
- public, mostly virtual, but has semi public sub-spaces (stoas). Different groups met in the different spaces and allowed people to join in and be part of something.
- Go beyond the commons concern of the market
A distributed knowledge graph
- Give it a list or repositories or resources and the agora will try to mash them together, find connections, find patterns, connect them.
A social network
- an integration between social graphs and knowledge graphs and hopefully will make it part of the fediverse and t/f give it a clearer part of the social network concept.
- a space - the definition of an agora the one best known
Both a vision and a hypothesis
- pro-social subsets of the internet would benefit from wide availability of a free interlay (as in the underlay project) provisioned and governed by a community as a commons.
- For the common good.
- Follow the principles of a commons.
- Develop tools and instructions to make it more likely that such a connective layer arrises with these characteristics.
- The agora is not good enough yet to be the connective layer but aims to be a bootstrap.
- Note taking, wiki building, web annotating, communities, seem to have unique opportunity at hand. Possible to self-organize in cooperative groups and set up ways to federate within a commons.
- Find common patterns and exploit them using the system where we can.
- Simple as possible
- Leverage existing conventions and formats
- bootstrap and build better ones from the bootstrap
- free software enabling a community to provision a basic knowledge commons
- requires little of would be integrators and give back generously to participating communities.
- inclusive and makes use of existing conventions, formats, tools, and networks for as long as practical.
- User repositories
- Social media
- Imports users' repositories every 30s and handles them. Usually git. Takes MassiveWiki and Social Media
Agora root repository
- List of repositories
- Configuration and bootstrap procedures
- Base content
- Web interface
- Interlink procedures
- Accessed by browser
- Python and Flask server
- Points to a root repository and with those resources attempt to find the patterns and pull out nodes which then get served to the user.
- May present notes on the same node by different users across different contexts.
- Agora Bridge
- High level entity
- Location on the knowledge graph
- Can hold information from multiple users and join different files
- Node can have Subnodes by different authors.
- Links in Nodes will be seen and link those nodes together at the Agora level.
- Nodes are social
- See anagora.org/nodes for visualization
- Common patterns:
You can agree on a slice for a concept and then right away start coordinating - exactly like using a hashtag
- Socail media works with hashtags to integrate into this concept.
- Agora lets you hashtag anywhere
- Social too
- Locaitons that act as semi public spaces
- Set up a hedge doc that is totally anonymous.
- Will get processed into the Angora within 30 sec.
- Etherpad and Jitsi both can get pulled in to a Stoas.
- Heavily uses iFrames whenever possible
- Default empty pages are a call to action
How to join!
- Take notes in your fav tool
- Publish in platform - usually git.
- Let an Agora maintainer know about it.
- Edges are wikilinks which refer to other nodes as found in volunteered subnodes
- Idea of composing notes
- three facets
- Attending: Jerry Michalski, Chris Aldrich, Aram Zucker-Scharff, David Pickrell, Flancian, Michael Grossman
- Aram Zucker-Scharff
- designer - editor - archivist - activist
- interested in information meritocracy
- working on a platform named factor
- hanging out in ogm for a while
- worked in magazines previously
- itinerant "software salesman" :)
- focused on helping people solve problems with software
one pitch for the group: son-in-law works on book.io which is a publishing environment that tries to empower authors
- unique covers for each of the books (NFT space, in the cardano chain)
- they release unique digital books at 20-30 USD a piece
- moving to do audio
- long time brain user
What's on people's minds?
Michael Grossman curious to ask David about book.io -- there are public domain works with many covers, how does that work?
- artists working with GenAI
Jerry Michalski is book.io a scarcity play or a publisher which is trying to be useful to creators?
- it tries to be the second
- targets mostly self-publishing authors currently
- every time a book gets resold, the author gets a percentage
- write professionally, would like to use editors more, and would not like to use them for free.
- would like to use such a platform to give participating editors a cut of produced works.
- Chris Aldrich
- Michael Grossman curious to ask David about book.io -- there are public domain works with many covers, how does that work?
Presentation on the Agora?
- 20th of September -- the date is set! :D
- Fediverse and Agora integration in the works
does chatgpt obsolete notetaking
AZS typical AI-disruption-take.
- These are tools for thinking and not just for ingestion.
- our computers/mobile phones already turn us into cyborgs; AI just adds another layer to this
- human intervention is what gives these things/outputs a value
CA note taking is a ratchet
"chat-gpt, build me something like the ethereum network to distribute books"
- we're not anywhere near there yet.
- "what is the next thing", in the sense of Einstein in 1904, is not something that this level of AI can solve.
- JM unclear on whether LLMs can only regurgigate known things or can actually improve on them -- compare with e.g. alphago coming up with novel moves
- "chat-gpt, build me something like the ethereum network to distribute books"
Michael Grossman podcast: https://a16z.simplecast.com/episodes/a-true-second-brain-xrODaBD2
- on Nat Eliason
- being able to take notes over years and put them into a model which you can then query/search
- a certain type of note taking will be much more useful than in the old days
- surfacing the note that somebody you trust has shared with you is what's golden
- Jerry Michalski when Google came out, we outsourced our memories to Google
- David Pickrell recording/transcription services you can add to meetings.
- AZS wikipedia is essentially the biggest collection of knowledge, yet people also get degrees
- AZS typical AI-disruption-take.
- chat / link dump
- Attending: Jerry Michalski, Chris Aldrich, Flancian, Samuel Klein, Aram Zucker-Scharff, Michael Grossman
- Took the full July off and did a family cruise to Alaska :)
- Not as rainy as expected, gorgeous scenery
- Q: did you keep a journal/notebook?
- A: did, but haven't done anything with it yet
Jerry Michalski One question that came up in a recent conversation: now that AI is around, do we need to still bother to take notes/curate links? :)
Read Engelbart over the summer and it was very interested in the context of GenAI developments/this conversation
Augmenting Human Intellect: A Conceptual Framework By Douglas C. Engelbart October 1962
- https://via.hypothes.is/https://dougengelbart.org/content/view/138 (Copy with Hypothesis annotations)
- Read Engelbart over the summer and it was very interested in the context of GenAI developments/this conversation
- Attending: Jerry Michalski, Flancian, V, Aram Zucker-Scharff, Michael Grossman
V loves federated systems, has been building those since the 2000s/2010s
- Neighbours with Jerry!
- V loves federated systems, has been building those since the 2000s/2010s
- Doing well
- Thoughts on living on confiscated land
- Jerry Michalski
- On providing sources and timelines relevant to things
- As a way to reverse context collapse and how it relates to the goals of the fellowship
- On the Agora as a prototype for "simply" federating ideas and definitions
- And precisely to push back against concept collapse and understand our points of contact and also of divergence
- Jerry Michalski
Flancian on agreeing on definitions and more generally on procedures to resolve definitions
- Maybe on defining a default commons as an advantage for a group that tries this
- The libertarian concept of finding an answer is what we get by default nowadays: different websites compete to provide the "best answer"
- But there is more than one answer to each problem based on context/expected use
- V on contextual ranking in the Agora: ranking results based on relevance for your social context
- Maybe thinking of positive opt-in community filter bubbles
- Michael Grossman
- Welcome V!
- on liquid democracy :)
- on yelling louder "forcing the stack"
- ah, this is just fascist politicking as defined in stuff like https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism
- small government usually means withdrawing support from causes
- Aram Zucker-Scharff
Jerry Michalski on five minute universities
- lightning classes: 5 minutes for presenting, 5 minutes for questions, follow up conversation happens later
- video on the great transformation
- Jerry Michalski says: https://bra.in/2qa2BE
- Interested in making timelines with 11ty? Aram Zucker-Scharff is looking for testers of https://github.com/AramZS/timelinety based on https://web3isgoinggreat.com/
- Attending: Jerry Michalski, Flancian, Peter Kaminski, Michael Grossman
- prepare now to give climate refugees: an identity, a nationality, internet connection, internet services
- what does citizenship mean now and in the future?
- snow crash vs star trek
- cory doctorow's walkaway
- on modelling solutions to big problems
- The End of Average: How We Succeed in a World That Values Sameness (2016)
- on (jet) fighter seats
- on the old belief that people used to live very little
- on averages
on cancers :(
When did people start understanding what cancer was?
In the late 1850's, "Virchow was the first to correctly link the origin of cancers from otherwise normal cells, believing that cancer is caused by severe irritation in the tissues (the ‘chronic irritation theory’). Not all of his work was correct, however. He also proposed that cancer spreads around the body by the spread of the irritation in liquid form."
- When did people start understanding what cancer was?
- flancian progress on https://link.agor.ai -- ready for your perusal and/or joining :)
- how do we take the outputs of all the calls we're in and do more with them?
- peter kaminski some links to share and a question :)
- Stowe Boyd has gotten deep into Obsidian: https://medium.com/workings/more-on-tufte-style-sidenotes-db61d3d8dce0
| | Openness | How well does it play with other tools? How interoperable and customisable is it? | F/OSS. Use open standards. Has an API. Import/Export Allow 3rd party plugins. Available on all OSs, platforms. Supports structured data | | Note-making | How good is it as a note-making tool? | Good outliner (easy indent/outdent, reorder, fold/zoom...) Atomic note structure, block references. Zettlekasten support. | | Writing/Publishing | How good is it as a writing & publishing tool? | WYSIWYG, zen writing environment/design, editing feature set, seamless publishing system to Web, Social. | | Idea discovery | Does it help users organise and (re)discover relevant notes? | Backlinks, Good search, AI-driven content discovery | | User-friendliness | How easy is it to start benefiting from it, off the shelf? | New user can get started and get benefits without taking courses, reading 3 books and 23 blog posts, or installing a dozen plugins | | Power | How powerful, adaptable & configurable is it? | Lots of features, highly customisable, many plug-ins, queryable knowledge, etc. | | Multiplayer | Allows teamwork | Group-based collaboration: groups, permissions, workflows, version control, commenting, moderation... | | Help | Is it easy to find high-quality documentation and answers to common questions? | Well-organised onboarding, documentation & FAQ system. | | Community | Is there a supportive community around the tool | Helpful community, active 3rd party developers, etc. | | Cost | How expensive is the tool | Free, or at least a v. useful free version in a freemium model | | Data sovereignty | Who owns your data? | Your files on your PC. | 20:35 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:BlueSky protocol 20:35 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:oops wrong paste Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://kolektiva.social/about
20:36 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/10-18-2022-the-at-protocol
20:37 me says: ctzn.one -- now down probably 20:37 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Paul Frazee? 20:38 me says:yes: http://anagora.org/pfrazee
20:39 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://paulfrazee.medium.com/back-to-basics-what-is-the-point-of-decentralization-a495123a1fd7
Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://context.center/topics/cryptocurrency/#activity-pub
20:41 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:small note: I'm Twitter user # 509 Jerry Michalski says:when it was just an SMS service 😃 20:43 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:😃 20:43 me says:Pleroma me says:Lemmy me says:Misskey? 20:44 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://github.com/misskey-dev/misskey
Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://twitter.com/Chronotope/status/1587511147137486848
20:45 me says:some interesting questions in this space: me says:1. what is the biggest overall activitypub instance? me says:2. what is the biggest which isn't mastodon based? 20:46 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:I think mastodon.social is the largest instance 20:46 me says:3. how large could a non-mastodon instance feasibly scale up to be currently? 20:46 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:advertising is the colonizing force of capitalism in internet spaces 20:47 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:Like cohost.org is sort of pushing in that direction as well Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://pinboard.in/ also sort of monetizes that way 20:48 me says: https://social.coop
20:48 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:guilds --> unions Jerry Michalski says:mutual aid --> cooperatives 20:50 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4467218-travelling-brothers?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=wM2PoCC5zD&rank=12 ? 20:51 me says:anti disintermediation me says:crypto is a convoluted way to define a trust root (in most applications, it seems) me says:"what are the platforms and protocols that we will take for granted 100 years from now" me says:counter anti disintermediation 😉 me says:citation needed 😉 20:54 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:full title: Travelling Brothers: The Six Centuries' Road from Craft Fellowship to Trade Unionism (1979) Jerry Michalski says:A Collective Bargain: Unions, Organizing, and the Fight for Democracy (2020) ? 20:55 me says: flancia.org/mine/flanbook is a bit about this -- coopting the machinery of capitalism for the purpose of advancing the revolution 20:56 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:oooo! 20:56 me says:commons me says:enclosure of the commons == another manifestation of capitalist colonization 20:57 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:my notes from this call: https://bra.in/3pWnJo
20:58 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:Ah i was thinking of Fight Like Hell by Kim Kelly Aram Zucker-Scharff says:I'll read that! :walking:
Attending: Jerry Michalski Chris Aldrich flancian
- Discussion of go links
11am Pacific on Fridays?
- Could conflict with date nights in Europe :)
11am Pacific on Thursdays?
- Let's try this!
- 11am Pacific on Fridays?
- shared resources
- what's a high leverage topic for the three of us?
- how to build a "webring" for meetings, documents about projects
obsidian with excalidraw done by a friend
- diagrams.net is also good
- open global mind ~ ogm
- flancian agora plus iframes for mvp of the above
Chris Aldrich standard based, using each item as a block
- tools tends to target one tool only, lots of duplication
- Chris Aldrich over designed it, over specified it, few people understand it completely
mastodon as the de facto standard rather than ActivityPub itself
- we can bridge to mastodon or pleroma, do not need to reimplement it
what about rss?
- Jerry Michalski does this not break transclusion?
- How can we prevent the unproductive RSS/Atom wars of the early blogosphere?
- Jerry Michalski least common denominator
- cory doctorow on the tragedy of the commons
from chat unprocesssed
- Jerry Michalski dice:transclusion
- Chris Aldrich dice:How to create a Read Fork Write Merge Web?
- Attending: Jerry Michalski, metasj, Mathew Lowry, flancian
- (joined late) (chat history)
- Jerry Michalski and mathew on medium
#push Mathew Lowry's chapter for pkg book
- outsourcing commenting to hypothesis
- web annotation standard
- activitypub to web annotation standard bridge?
- Jerry Michalski nuggets in the big fungus
- Mathew Lowry nuggets as cross-linked executive summaries
- challenge: take a global commons that you care aobut, and scope out its potential full extent
Jerry Michalski take a pattern language that already exist
- (lists three)
- ...and turn them into commons shared materials and instrument
- pattern languages == distilled wisdom
- from patterns to praxis
- a platform for pattern languages: this was tried on top of mediawiki smw
instrumentalize > instrument?
- what's the verb when mycelium sprouts a mushroom?
- metasj tried to put ward and alexander in contact to discuss agreeing on a platform
- Jerry Michalski engelbart struggled with this
- a strategy to make everybody facilitating facilitations a better facilitator
- leads to a global memory artifact
- mathew what's the end goal of this envisioning/scoping exercise?
- Jerry Michalski applause in sign language
- tools to better capture knowledge produced from conferences/workshops and share it with the world
Jerry Michalski idea commons
- pastors.com is where a lot of evangelical preachers get what they say on Sundays (!)
- open source sermon central
- pattern repository, people router
counter anti disintermediation leading back to distributed systems and liquid democracy
- maybe could yield a metric w.r.t. degree of distrubution of structures of power
complementary cognitive artifacts
- maybe yields a metric w.r.t. resiliency to losing
- composed effects of higher efficiency in cooperation, coordination problem
- counter anti disintermediation leading back to distributed systems and liquid democracy
- unschooling, regenerative agriculture, traffic calming...
- ice:bootstrapping: ways to make people vectors for a new approach
- patterning: process for helping people abstract their work to its full potential extent
- which will usually overlap w/ the full-extent of other existing/smaller patterns
- matchmaking: people who could work on the same vectors
- upload past recording to youtube
metasj and flancian 1:1
- building bridges, wormholes
- workshops and facilitating of world building
- future casting -> incepting
- wikimedia + web annotations
- Attending: Jerry Michalski, diego de la hera, flancian, Chris Aldrich
- flancian been inviting people already, but would be like to use some kind of policy?
- Jerry Michalski suggest to use the Mattermost to coordinate; use this space to consider together our goals and attract others like this
let's use the list of people in the doc https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RAourQe_MKh0uWomLsS_V5ea3zm30g8paE49X56jIHs/edit
- to brainstorm on who to invite if you want to discuss a priori
- flancian invited Dan because of his interested in the space + his experience with web standards
- web https://www.fellowshipofthelink.org/
- who wants admin? :)
we could also start groups in social networks, e.g. linkedin
- flancian mastodon?
- got stuck in choosing an instance
- diego de la hera lack of defaults as a hindrance to adoption here, in the indieweb as well
- Jerry Michalski barry schwartz https://bra.in/4jXVP2
Chris Aldrich with more choice you usually get increasing complexity
- you are given so much choice it's almost too much (in the indieweb)
- Jerry Michalski templates, walkthroughs add a lot of value
- Chris Aldrich you need either a lot of time or people motivated because they're building business
- peter kaminski introduced Jerry Michalski to obsidian
- on straightforward vs powerful tools
diego de la hera on the power of forks
- e.g. Chris Aldrich's setup is something we could fork to bootstrap a new user's environment
- people have copy/pasted Chris's website already, full pages at a time :)
- flancian map of the fediverse
longer term goals / brainstorming / dream sharing
series of projects revolving around these issues
- open global mind, started 2y ago
think camp funds startups in this space
- "profitable businesses that feed the commons"
- read an interesting article today, conservative point of view with good arguments even though some disagreeable premises
wishlist for fotl: how do these parts fit together?
- how do we make it so that our notes provide maximum utility, spread through the big fungus
- series of projects revolving around these issues
Chris Aldrich would like to focus on how to
- make it all work together
- make the systems be easy to use
- make something that is as simple to understand as facebook?
- I'd like to see commonplace books that can "talk" to each other.
- "the stream flows by too fast"
- Jerry Michalski
- john borthwick at betaworks has funding for small projects think camp
- Watch parties
diego de la hera
web annotations were mentioned; thought of two connections
peter hagen -> lindylearn https://lindylearn.io/ and specifically https://annotations.lindylearn.io/new/
- social platform where you would find what other people are annotating and join the conversation
- provides a discovery layer for what others are reading and thinking about
- chrome is also tackling annotations
- worldbrain, memex?
it seems like here we want to work more on the level of how to connect different annotation tools at a (federated?) layer
- perhaps what we need is an integration device at this layer, e.g. wikilinks
- peter hagen -> lindylearn https://lindylearn.io/ and specifically https://annotations.lindylearn.io/new/
- web annotations were mentioned; thought of two connections
- After the event, Mathew Lowry: https://doc.anagora.org/Kz1qvywQRjq9nZ-ElXlHUg?view
Matterbridge site for group communication: https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/tips
Mathew Lowry mentioned Mysilio
- (https://mysilio.com/) a "thinking tool"/platform that uses Solid - funded by Foundation for the Web; has a social media tool and a digital garden
- Attending: Jerry Michalski, diego de la hera, flancian, Chris Aldrich
Our personal history
- Diego en Córdoba
- Jerry Michalski pasos por sudamérica, ahora en Portland
- Eduardo de Buenos Aires, ahora en Suiza
- Relationships locally and globally
Jerry: open global mind meeting just before
- Send email to firstname.lastname@example.org to sign up :)
(Chris Aldrich joined, introductions)
- Jerry Michalski
- diego de la hera
- background: biomedical and electrical engineer, been on the web since the early 90s
- indieweb / https://indieweb.org
- open web backup, strong belief in owning your own domain, your own data, your own identity
- done work on genetics, but germane: spent a lot of time in the entertainment industry as it overlaps with the open web
- massive amount of data
- history, culture as intertwined with knowledge tools
- current focus on wikis and note taking tools
Jerry Michalski wishful thinking for a design in this space
- it should allow all users to view data through their chosen tools
- sometimes you change tools as you shift what you need to do (they are good at different modes of thinking)
kumu == https://kumu.io
- is it open source?
- jupyter notebooks are an inspiration
diego de la hera we mentioned a diversity of tools here:
- closed and open
- wiki like and otherwise
- ...but as long as these platforms provide this data in a documented way, do we need a central tool? wouldn't collaboration emerge even without a central tool?
- jerry +1 -- the big fungus is a metaphor for the result of this collaboration. But playnz might be an mvp/demo or just an experiment/playground for interoperability.
are these tools perhaps already playns?
- they might be, yes.
Chris Aldrich progressive enhancement is key
- how can we take all these tools and build an architecture that supports progressive enhancement?
- we start with plain text as the base, then you can add things like markdown/html, then you add photos/media
flancian problems and opportunities:
- exploring hub architecture vs full graph integration
- lossiness as you interop through tools, playns
complexity of integrations
- Chris Aldrich pairwise compatibility is a nightmare
- translation as a service
- markdown as lingua franca
- Jerry Michalski
- interest in the crystallization of what we know together
- fellowship of the link as it relates to other projects
diego de la hera isn't the web as a whole what we need? :)
- html is the lingua franca of our time
indieweb has examples of this working
- acid test of interoperability
- swat0 https://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0
search engine for tagged/linked trusted content
- intimacy gradient
- lists we could assemble:
- Chris Aldrich "The world lost so much because Vannevar Bush didn't use the word commonplace book in his article As We May Think."
- an essay.
All bridges, it seems to me, start as desire paths in the sky; like most of the interesting things we find in the space made up of the intelligently-made universe that tends to surround us (what a privilege), they were plans before they materialized.
- that has lots of actual notes for meetings, these are random chat logs and other items that we factored out for one reason or the other
- (HedgeDoc used to be hitting note size limits, but not anymore).
names for the project that has already started :)
mathew lowry let's create some distributed map of thinking tools:
- #jm https://bra.in/5qeDMg
#jm spider charts
- looks like a polar chart
- what are the axes? visualization, openness, artificial intelligence, etc. ML: also the different notetaking techniques CJA: What are the building blocks and affordances they provide so one can have a progressively improved/complex experience
- See start of this at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hY2V5NoSS713R2wzcjBE2q5KZIlfMOPFtL9g6Gaop_o/edit#gid=0
People we should invite to join?
AIs ~ action items
- AI(flancian): post about adversarial interoperability in ogm
- AI(flancian): add the following to the Agora as one of the search "providers" :)
- sync about approach / instructions for betaworks 2022-08-16 event
- AI(jerry michalski): give access to github repo?
Create a survey about uses of tools for thought and note taking?
- (discussed 2022-08-11)
Jerry Michalski says: https://flowimmersive.com/tricast Fellow Jitster says: (note for later: Obs 27 has issues) Jerry Michalski says: https://doc.anagora.org/fellowship-of-the-link Jerry Michalski says:the book in progress: https://personalknowledgegraphs.com/#/page/Personal%20Knowledge%20Graphs mathew says:Shipping containers for thoughts https://anagora.org/ramon-llull Jerry Michalski says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Gessner Chris Aldrich says:You want this reference Mathew: Lima, Manuel. The Book of Trees: Visualizing Branches of Knowledge, 2014. https://papress.com/products/the-book-of-trees-visualizing-branches-of-knowledge mathew says:👍 Chris Aldrich says:Some additional names for your history of knowledge list: Aristotle, Porphyry, Isidore of Seville, Lambert of Saint-Omer, R. Llull, Joachim of Fiore, F. Bacon, C. Linnaeus, R. Descartes, E. Haeckel, Thomas Harrison, Leibnitz, Beatrice Webb Jerry Michalski says: https://wiki.rel8.dev/rel8_pioneers
Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://www.rel8.dev/
20:02 me says:(feel free to queue topics in https://doc.anagora.org/fellowship-of-the-link?edit ) 20:02 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:underlay and interlay projects Jerry Michalski says:Sam Klein 20:13 me says: https://doc.anagora.org/fellowship-of-the-link?edit
20:14 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://mathewlowry.medium.com/from-personal-to-social-knowledge-graphs-a-vision-statement-draft-fc86ef4f7022
Jerry Michalski says: https://indieweb.org/Webmention
Jerry Michalski says: http://microformats.org/
Jerry Michalski says: https://blot.im/
20:34 me says:nice: https://github.com/davidmerfield/blot
me says:that exists 20:36 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:yes, I just spent some time discovering who created Blot. he hides well 20:37 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:The design and UI portions of this are definitely paramount. 20:37 mathew mathew says: https://www.otherlife.co/pkm/
20:38 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says: https://blot.im/
20:38 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://www.otherlife.co/pkm/
Jerry Michalski says: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinmatthewmurphy/
20:38 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:The better link for that with some commentary on those who are in the note taking space: https://via.hypothes.is/https://www.otherlife.co/pkm/
20:39 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:nuggets! 20:39 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Andy Matuschak 20:39 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:nuggets, narratives and points of view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmId2x6JSQE&feature=related
20:39 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Mathew, you should also take a look at Ward Cunningham's FedWiki spaces which are very similar to Andy's notes. Chris Aldrich says:Ward's system has a set up with those small ideas linked within a broader wiki and he's got a programatic "Markov Monkey" that traverses all these nodes on the linked graph. 20:41 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:that friendly giant vampire squid Jerry Michalski says:and I do think vampire squids have gotten a bad rap... 20:42 ~SJ ~SJ says:😃 20:42 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:FedWiki, Cult of Roam, Zettelkasten, Brain.... 20:43 me says:they should all be able to contribute to the Commons 😃 20:43 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:this is modern literacy Jerry Michalski says:how do we get everyone working/thinking this way? 20:46 mathew mathew says:FWIW, the myhub curation bookmarklet is "default publish", not "save draft". 20:47 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:FriendFeed! 20:47 mathew mathew says:😃 20:47 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:cash HC economy Jerry Michalski says:oh right! the question we asked earlier! 😃 Jerry Michalski says:what is your inbound stream? defining that Jerry Michalski says:from all sources 20:49 me says:like an agora view 20:49 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:easy to curate 20:49 mathew mathew says: https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*FbdJHEnIedP3xTjNO70JUA.png
20:49 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:I want the agora as a service so I can have my own, but with out the admin tax and overhead. 20:49 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Knowledge Navigator's assistants 20:51 mathew mathew says:So do we need to be building tools for Adversarial Interoperability 20:52 me says:+1 me says:there's two possible assistants mentioned in the Agora currently that I know of: socrates (a teacher) and robofriend (a maintainer) 20:53 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:nice! Jerry Michalski says: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interoperability
20:55 me says:"having a somewhere" me says:knowledge contexts 20:55 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://www.thebigfungus.org/
Jerry Michalski says:that's one of my wheres; the other is my Brain Jerry Michalski says:intimacy gradient Jerry Michalski says:maps to who gets to see what Jerry Michalski says:link to the piece, Chris? Jerry Michalski says: https://indieweb.org/Microsub
Jerry Michalski says:View-Master Jerry Michalski says:HMW really use power tools well? Jerry Michalski says:composability Jerry Michalski says:bespoke vs off the shelf Jerry Michalski says: https://micro.blog/
21:03 me says:what I'd like to do is fund services where you can pay for others as well me says:as in, you pay $20 for micro.blog and that way three other people don't have to pay 21:05 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:nice Jerry Michalski says:pay it forward Jerry Michalski says: https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z2QvtE9w5zs49x7WUeG8Ut1vywHDLiG2Wkm9p
21:06 me says:(need to go in about five minutes) 21:08 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says: https://indieweb.org/social_reader
Chris Aldrich says: https://indieweb.org/Microsub
Chris Aldrich says:Here's that Webmention notification on my site from Andy's: https://boffosocko.com/2021/07/03/differentiating-online-variations-of-the-commonplace-book-digital-gardens-wikis-zettlekasten-waste-books-florilegia-and-second-brains/#comment-351147
Chris Aldrich says: https://indieweb.org/Micro.blog
21:12 mathew mathew says:that's absolutely the mysilio business model mathew says:(thinking tool on Solid pods) 21:13 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:this is, after all, the FoTL 21:14 mathew mathew says:😃 21:14 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:it's links all the way down 21:14 mathew mathew says:link s primary, the rest is context 21:14 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:This post has a short video that gives an overview of how social readers and webmention work in conjunction with one's website using small building blocks loosely joined: https://boffosocko.com/2021/04/26/a-twitter-of-our-own-at-oerxdomains-2021-conference/
19:05 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/ogm-fellowship-of-the-link
Jerry Michalski says: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RAourQe_MKh0uWomLsS_V5ea3zm30g8paE49X56jIHs/edit
Jerry Michalski says: https://www.fellowshipofthelink.org/
19:14 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://bra.in/4jXVP2
19:20 me says:that's rel8? 19:31 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Does The Brain have a feed coming out of it to be able to find recent things someone else has put into it? 19:33 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:nyet. I asked Harlan for an RSS feed 15 years ago. still doesn't have one Jerry Michalski says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Toulmin#The_Toulmin_model_of_argument
Jerry Michalski says:Instathink? 19:40 me says:pixelfed 😃 plus mastodon with annotations 19:40 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:oh! one more project to describe: Think Camp 19:40 me says:and pixelfed and mastodon interop 😉 19:40 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:watch parties Jerry Michalski says:we're drowning in the infotorrent Jerry Michalski says:turning streams into gardens Jerry Michalski says: https://docdrop.org/video/XnoN7mCu9Yg/
Jerry Michalski says: https://bra.in/5pxdW6
19:48 Diego Diego says:lindylearn 19:49 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://lindylearn.io/blogs ?? 19:50 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Jerry, closer to this: https://annotations.lindylearn.io/new/
Jerry Michalski says:reminder: I playfully bought this domain for these projects: https://www.playnz.dev/
Jerry Michalski says:also 😃 Jerry Michalski says:re the planes that Diego is describing Jerry Michalski says:I also like that the Big Fungus indirectly points to psilocybin... 19:55 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:The indieweb has explored the idea of mushrooms and a mycelium network Chris Aldrich says:which is a similar sort of analogy to what we're discussing 19:56 Diego Diego says:what is the problem of how to resolve them? 19:56 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:is this about content addressability? Jerry Michalski says:love that, Chris Jerry Michalski says:is Tantek still in the middle of the indieweb? Jerry Michalski says:if so, he's an old acquaintance. we can invite him in 19:58 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Tantek is definitely in the center and on a daily basis. 19:58 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:schweet!
Chat and Polls Chat Polls Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Ida Josefiina 20:05 Marc-Antoine Parent Marc-Antoine Parent says:that's a lot of us 😃 20:05 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/ida-josefiina-40824a75
Peter Kaminski says:"X-Risk" https://mitpress.mit.edu/9781913029845/x-risk/
20:06 Marc-Antoine Parent Marc-Antoine Parent says: https://www.supermind.design/database
20:07 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Supermind in my Brain: https://bra.in/4qEXDK
20:07 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_strength_and_readability_report
Peter Kaminski says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apgar_score (1952) 20:10 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Apgar Score (1952 Appearance, Pulse, Grimace, Activity, Respiration) 20:10 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says: https://eastgate.com/Tinderbox/
20:10 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinderbox_(application_software)
Jerry Michalski says:Mark Bernstein Jerry Michalski says:who wrote this in 1988: http://www.eastgate.com/garden/Enter.html ! 20:11 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says: http://www.eastgate.com/storyspace/index.html
20:14 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storyspace
20:14 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says:"Familiar hypertext tools support calligraphic hypertext, hypertext that begins without links and lets the writer link things that should be connected. Storyspace 3 adds sculptural hypertext tools as well. Sculptural hypertext begins with densely linked bundles like decks of cards, from which the reader might select pages in any sequence. But Storyspace hypertexts aren’t just random: writers can remove links and enforce constraints so the hypertext organizes itself. Sculptural hypertext encourages painterly narrative in which the writer controls what she knows to be necessary while relaxing control over the reader when control might not be needed." 20:14 Fellow Jitster Fellow Jitster says:(taking notes in https://doc.anagora.org/fellowship-of-the-link , but I started late) 20:18 Marc-Antoine Parent Marc-Antoine Parent says: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AY6y-uHUQE82zfLgwZLk29VPTaI1P5AMo6HT8zz1WDU/edit
20:18 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:this is the spreadsheet where we tested the radar chart, with some dimensions: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hY2V5NoSS713R2wzcjBE2q5KZIlfMOPFtL9g6Gaop_o/edit#gid=0
20:19 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says:Here is our project planning/coordination wiki (short-term URL, obviously): "Project plan - Mapping the thinking tool landscape with collective intelligence" https://dainty-sable-264aa3.netlify.app/project/project_plan
20:19 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Flancian is on a roller coaster! 20:20 me says:haha, joined from the office today so away from my better tested equipment 😉 20:20 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says: https://www.scrintal.com/
20:22 jackpark jackpark says: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m56SHPGgeFfB_3ToO9-VB9Yu266wtS5-9xlwaFeJ68k/edit?usp=sharing is a link to a user's manual for LiteNet which is a topic map-based pkm - I don't push it because it needs more work. jackpark says:scrintal just sent me an invite to join 20:23 Marc-Antoine Parent Marc-Antoine Parent says: https://lu.ma/tftrocks-oct22
20:23 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:T4T interop 20:25 jackpark jackpark says:By way of the superminds youtube, discovered this https://www.gyanai.com/
20:26 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Gyan founder is Joy Dasgupta Jerry Michalski says:one version of Marc-Antoine explaining HyperKnowledge: https://hyperknowledge.org/HyperKnowledge.mp4
20:29 jackpark jackpark says: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joy-dasgupta-67722833/
20:29 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Who needs word police when we can go "full Humpty Dumpty": "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more or less."—H. Dumpty (via Lewis Carroll) 20:29 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Calvinball for words! 20:29 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says: https://boffosocko.com/2011/08/16/meaning-according-to-humpty-dumpty/
20:30 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says:non sequitur, Nick Milo has had two really good PKM / LYT conferences this year (consider getting on one of his mailing lists to hear about more). The conferences are free and have recordings. Peter Kaminski says: https://www.linkingyourthinking.com/conference
Peter Kaminski says: https://www.linkingyourthinking.com/idea-exchange-conference
20:30 jackpark jackpark says: https://twitter.com/the_LYT_way
20:39 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:I kept misreading it as "fragmentation" it's frag mention! Jerry Michalski says:tx, Chris Jerry Michalski says:superforecasters 😃 Jerry Michalski says:rating assertions over time for their accuracy Jerry Michalski says:including the cost of lives lost Jerry Michalski says:actuarial? Jerry Michalski says:heresy! hashtags are not enough 20:50 me says:lexon 20:59 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: http://lexon.tech/
20:59 Marc-Antoine Parent Marc-Antoine Parent says: http://www.lexon.tech/
20:59 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:more precise, hidden speech Jerry Michalski says:codes Jerry Michalski says:coded speech Jerry Michalski says:what's the right term for coded speech? I'm not finding the right things Jerry Michalski says:Coded Language? 21:04 Marc-Antoine Parent Marc-Antoine Parent says:how is it different from dog whistle? 21:04 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:dog whistle is a type of this more general term Jerry Michalski says:the recording stopped spontaneously at the hour. I have a file w the recording here. but no notice, etc. 😦 21:07 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:there's also code switching which is a cultural identity flavor of this 21:08 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:well, that didn't work. it stopped on its own, almost immediately Jerry Michalski says:guess we can't record >60 mins Jerry Michalski says:or maybe it takes two different users Jerry Michalski says:and my Brain! and my Brain! 21:10 me says:I'm working on ogm.agor.ai 😉 21:10 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:I get site can't be reached there 21:11 me says:it's not up yet ,sorry -- but I do have agor.ai , the idea is to run different agoras in different subdomains 21:11 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:aaah 21:11 Type a message
Welcome to FOTL threads!
- from 2022-10-26
flancian have been meaning to collect a list of repositories which we would like integrate into a shared construct (agora wink wink) -- do you have any?
- peter kaminski massive wiki is agnostic w.r.t. versioning and sharing models (or tries to be)
do you have note repositories of your own, personal or otherwise?
- peter kaminski have one but not currently shareable :)
AI: suggest we keep discussing this in future instances
- sister sites, sister pages
- twin pages
- web rings :)
- wiki collaboration primitives
Instant wikilinks / cascading wikisheets: implicit interwiki resolution (a la https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/InstantCommons) :: make the local .cws legible so you can see the order in which your current interface looks for matching nodes in choosing the default interwiki
- try variation that chooses cascade order based on length/quality of target node
- try interface variation that shows top N options in asymmetric list/pie
fedwiki is brilliant but the feeling of the room is that we don't fully understand it
- is there people building any kind of business providing fedwiki widely/easily?
- sj: update vocab to distinguish meki from wiki
- flancian have been meaning to collect a list of repositories which we would like integrate into a shared construct (agora wink wink) -- do you have any?
I run a lightweight implementation of Go Links on the /go/ URL space. Basically anything under https://flancia.org/go/ is a redirect to a URL somewhere on the internet. Think of it as open, lightweight social bookmarking.
The Go Links idea is very popular in many companies. It originated at Google. I think it might catch on in the wider internet as well.
If you'd like to implement Go Links on your domain, there's two ways I could currently recommend. Read on.
Use HTTP redirects.
The geekier way. Simplest and quickest to set up if you like stuff like writing your own Apache/Nginx configs. Basically just set up redirects in /go/, done.
TODO: link my live nginx configuration/redirect list?
Use Trotto Go Links.
- A go link is a canonical result for a search query.
- A go link is a url which is relevant for the task at hand.
- If the agora sees a block in your notes that links to the 'go' node followed by a URL, as per the example below, it will redirect users to the URL when they invoke the action.
- See also: agora-go-links-integration.
- To browse every go link in the agora, see backlinks below.
- The above block results in the Agora creating a go link for the node id in which it is in ('go'), redirecting to the URL that appears after the action.
- Concretely, if you visit anagora.org/go/go you will be redirected to flancia.org/mine/go-links.
- This, I believe, can be a sufficient substrate for implementing social bookmarking and social search.
- twitter https://twitter.com/flancian/status/1330572022146019328 .
- jerry michalski
- -> jerry's brain cybersyn salvador allende
- how do we frame this conversation?
jerry how we handle links seems very powerful
- "how can I be the chuck yeager of a the new platform"
- would love to get out of the current tool into something freer
500000 nodes, 1000000 links
- flancian FYI the Agora is small but has 1:4 linking ratio currently
- "linking freely but not promiscuously helps find things later"
note taking vs thebrain
- note taking does happen in the brain
- but Jerry doesn't actually use the notes field per se
it's not even outliner mode: it's an actual graph that Jerry navigates dynamically
- what about the time dimension?
- thebrain timestamps everything, but it's not really retrievable via an API
- wish: interop between tools that support every useful workflow
#push open global mind group, every Thu there is a check in call, as an example of taking notes here
- jerry how we handle links seems very powerful
- Jerry's their largest user.
- Has never paid for it.
Freeing Jerry's Brain
- what else might we do with the structure that it's easy for him to capture / has been captured?
- Exploring migration to other platforms.
- Asked for an rss feed twenty years ago (!)
- No other tool seems to be up to the task of migrating to it.
- Export is a json dump
Would love to offer his brain to others to take a snapshot and start building on it.
- content hash based tools have failed so far
- if you get into decentralized sharing, there are:
both of these are missing the higher level point: what humans want to share is concepts
- "you want the latest human genome"
"you want to find a map of charging stations"
- it'd make sense to compose canonical lists at different levels (city, region, global)
- coordination problem
- hashtags as an example of grassroot technology
- wikilinks as acceptable search queries for whatever you're trying to store
- query based event addressing
- sj huggingmind?
flancian have you done a mindmeld with someone else?
- Jerry knows one more advanced user, but thebrain doesn't offer any way to do this
- the exported bag of json objects is available, people are interested
- free jerry's brain group, meets Mondays at 1PM Pacific, part of open global mind
- also mattermost has a channel dedicated to it
- peter kaminski
- where to chat?
- zsolt did a excalidraw + obsidian mashup
- a healthy way forward is to have a series of design sessions for the interop ecosystem, identify components, identify the pieces that will make it easy for others to adopt the system and get value from it
- jerry Rel8 Use Cases: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWkwOefBPZY
- Jerry: "sharing our notes to fix civilization"
- Replacing powerpoint with better storytelling tool
- start an awesome foundation chapter?