# Fellowship of the Link - a [[meeting]]. - #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link - Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]. - Notes are all in this stoa; older notes that were in [[fotl]] are also now here for convenience (they had only been moved out because of a length restriction in [[HedgeDoc]] I've since lifted.) ## Agenda - Attending: [[x]] - Start recording, we're currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser. - #push [[fotl threads]] - define: - [[wiki]] / root URL - [[calendar]] URL - [[issue tracker]] / [[project tracker]] URL - [[github]] by default? ## 2023-01-25 - Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Bentley Davis]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Flancian]] [[SJ]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] Tools for thought call tomorrow with [[Mark Bernstein]] of Eastgate Systems, Inc. at https://lu.ma/2u5f7ky0 - Have we invited [[Boris Mann]] to FotL? - Good idea! - Start recording, we're currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser. - [[Check ins]] - [[Peter Kaminski]] - Update on [[tools for thinking map project]]. - First deliverable: getting a website up. - Had lots of fun using [[massive wiki]] to set this up, which resulted in feature requests (?). - [[Bentley Davis]] - Only tangentially here :) - Working on a podcast: [[evidence explores]] - On objective truth vs 'just communication' - [[Flancian]] what's a good way to keep track of your projects? - No centralized place, mostly Twitter/Mastodon. - #jm https://bra.in/7pRnEx - Mostly playing with ideas. https://bentleydavis.com does cover the main goal though. - Chris: Bentley has a numbered list with 'happiness' instead of 'profit' :) - [[Chris Aldrich]] - Have been brainstorming on a list of things to mirror Jerry's list. - Reached out to [[Paul Rony]], starting a discussion related to the [[tools for thought podcast]]. - Have a /now page on [[boffosocko]], will update it to expose plans and current work :) - Playing with [[massive wiki]] and [[media wiki]]. - Getting close to cleaning up notes enough to join the [[Agora]] :) - [[Jerry Michalski]] - three things from play to serious :) - https://wiki.rel8.dev/the_big_fungus - really liking it as a metaphor :) - goal: doing youtube shorts for a different reason, but thinking about doing shorts about fungi and other concepts in this space. - [[podcast]] and [[paul rony]] - [[tools for thinking]] -- but won't be called that - anybody interested, reach out! could be a rotating host/focus scheme - "[[fire ready aim]]" - a season just finished - "why tools for thinking" (is this hopeless?) was the topic of the last recorded one - trying to figure out the right structure for [[rel8]] - how can it help spark the shared memory, the big fungus, etc. - idea: create a center at some university/college. maybe in Portland? - idea: should [[rel8]] be a public entity? a dao? a [[DisCO]]? etc. - [[SJ]] ~ [[metasj]] - Been working on a lot of [[wiki]] projects in the last few months. - Trying to amplify connectivity in the mycellium :) - e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games/Sources - there's many lists of this kind in wikipedia; trying to create computer-readable versions of these, maintain them as datasets. - goal: making tables in any wiki convertable into different data formats, datasets - Revitalizing [[WikiCite]] project - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiCite - The internet archive is working on a related project. - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Udell]] built some bots that operated on citations and integrated them into hypothes.is - [[Jerry Michalski]] https://bra.in/5vNyXW - [[steam pipe]] ~ https://steampipe.io/ - [[Flancian]] - On layoffs across the industry - #pk someone said, on why does a company with a lot of money in the bank need to do layoffs? Mostly to make itself look good to investors in the short term. - game theoretic aspects ("everybody else is doing it") - #ca hopefully this opens up new space? - Is there a jobs board for entrepreneurs in the knowledge space? - Not that we know of. - [[Jerry Michalski]] - on conversation with X (who?) - and the production of 'non social' artifacts - [[Chris Aldrich]] on empowering students and teachers by democratizing history (paraphrasing) - [[Big History project]] http://www.bighistoryproject.com/ - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Christian_(historian) - https://bra.in/3jL4kN - [[SJ]] relationship with automation, which introduces a step function component in history - Science/tech sees automation as a solution, humanities tends to see it as generating problems - #ca https://xkcd.com/1205/ - #jm history has a tendency to lock us into suboptimal but profit-maximizing structures - [[hypertalk]] podcast (likely name) - [[flancian]] let's start some pages for possible episodes and bootstrap a wiki-dialogue? - [[SJ]] first idea: [[naming discussion]] - [[SJ]] other topic: the possibilities opened up by [[generative models]] - people project baggage into the space (copyright, etc.) - [[SJ]] callout for starting an [[Awesome Foundation]]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sj/AwesomeKnowledge - #jm what does it take to become a chapter? - #sj you fill a form declaring interest in doing one award per month. the amounts are relatively small but the work (and the award) should be joyful - #jm on [[serious fun]] - why do we separate work, play and learning? - #ca one of his favorite things about the [[indieweb]] community is the playfulness of it - lots of indieweb features start from "I wish my site could do this" - [[indieweb collective]] ~ https://opencollective.com/indieweb - [[SJ]] [[replit]] implemented bounties recently - [[bounties]], [[awards]] for cool things, [[microtransfers]] - Next step: brainstorm other communities that keep lists of 'cool things to do' associated with bounties or a similar incentive structure - [[lazy web]] - #push [[fotl threads]] - define: - [[wiki]] / root URL - [[calendar]] URL - [[issue tracker]] / [[project tracker]] URL - [[github]] by default? ## 2023-01-18 - Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Bentley Davis]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]. If Jitsi will behave, [[Chris Aldrich]] will join in a minute or two... - Planning for the year - Individually and as a fellowship? :) - [[Jerry Michalski]] https://wiki.rel8.dev/bigger_goals - Trying to be more 'action oriented' - Flancian interested in particular: - [[shared note taking]] - [[pattern languages]] - pattern languages vs. lists of patterns - [[pattern language workshop]] during the pandemic - Instrumenting patterns: some patterns are more amenable to turning into code - 1, 2, 4, all [[zoom app]] - meta facilitation app - [[wikilinks]] and [[hashtags]] as patterns - and their advanced used (conventions) - [[pattern candidate ideas]] - [[aram zucker]] this is the perfect use for a wiki - [[Peter Kaminski]] - [[John Abbe]] and I are working on "[[SuperLiminal]]", a public wiki - started as a [[massive wiki]], coming into focus - it's about: [[pattern languages]], [[quality without a name]] ~ [[QWAN]], [[systems thinking]] - see - open concerns: - hard to adopt massivewiki, hard to onboard to it - it implies onboarding onto git - massive wiki is [[tool agnostic]] but in practice everybody is using [[obsidian]] - one of the things with obsidian is that it's getting more complex and less user friendly as it grows and adds more features - Peter's dream system: [[opal]]. simpler and has git built in. - https://developer.massive.wiki/opal - interesting idea for [[massive wiki]] - original acronym [[MaSVF]] (Markdown, shared, versioned, files) - [[Massive Human Intelligence Project]] (2021 as MaSVF Wiki, Markdown Shared Versioned Files, “Massive”) - federation as markdown attachments in email - [[the return of email]] - email attachments as a lightweight federation medium - node@anagora.org - #pk email-in to Obsidian? - [x] [IFTTT and OneDrive, Patrick Berry]( https://patrickberry.medium.com/email-notes-to-obsidian-8fba96a7d35b) (Medium) - [x] [Using Integromat and Obsidian Webhooks, bwydoogh](https://forum.obsidian.md/t/obsidian-send/23899/10) (Obsidian Forum) - [[git]] conflicts - on potentially automatically resolving wiki edits - maybe outliner mode makes this easier - [[obsidian git]] - keeps improving - #pk atom/pulsar is picked up by non-technical users sometimes though - [[pulsar]] https://pulsar-edit.dev/ - Flancian: [[mastosearch]] as it relates to discovery of git repository / integration of the [[knowledge commons]] - (...) - Potential for a bad actor to move first and enclose the commons. - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] maybe fragmenting search is the best bet -- e.g. make it easier for people to provision and use search tools - https://context.center/topics/indie-search/ - Should we worry about the [[enclosure problem]]? - [[Peter Kaminski]]: I worry about enclosures but not about the enclosure problem in general? - In the beginning we didn't have centralized search engines. People chose them out of convenience. - If you're careful enough and say "last time we tried this it didn't work out" maybe it's enough. - You can have the same content in many massive wikis. There is no authoritative versions, etc. So maybe [[massive wiki is enclosure proof]]. - Flancian +1 althought the question may be about the size of the backing commons. People may choose enclosure-friendly tools due to their convenience again. - Aram: we need Federation. - #jm [[kosmik]] [[fedwiki]] - #pk https://murmurations.network/ - [[chris aldrich]] "The Read Write Web is no longer sufficient. I want the Read Fork Write Merge Web." - [Tantek](https://indieweb.org/2011/Smallest_Federated_Wiki#Inspiration) - [[jerry michalski]] [[kosmik]] can be described as a distributed filesystem (or is built upon one) - too promiscuous forking as in [[fedwiki]] is confusing - Aram: need to democratize the way we maintain and share search indexes. - Probably also need a way to distinguish 'I am linking to this page' from 'I am giving authority to this page'. - schema.org has a property 'is based on' - [[Peter Kaminski]] [[maparent]] has [[hyperknowledge]] which has similar characteristics - Flancian: client-based [[disintermediation]] as a complementary approach. - Aram: role distribution as we see in wikis? Tools for communities of knowledge. - #pk: xtension values for the rel="" attribute in HTML5: https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions - #ca Or user ability to search a variety of areas based on what they know or trust, so something along the lines of allowing the user to choose their search like https://github.com/CanisLupus/swift-selection-search does - #ca [[indieweb wiki]]: a community maintaining a wiki and a newsletter coming out each week - #pk [[VoteLinks]]: https://microformats.org/wiki/vote-links ## 2023-01-11 - We're back! :) - [[Checkins]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] - [[Argentina 1985]] - Jerry left [[Argentina 1972]]. - Traumatic family experiences. - Then [[Guerra sucia]]. - Wounds of traumatic experiences, political reality. - On [[Ulysses S. Grant]] at the end of the [[US Civil War]]. - Did the South lose the war but win history? - [[Amateur historian]] hypothesis: - The US is paying for how the Civil War was concluded poorly. - [The Case for Reparations by Ta\-Nehisi Coates - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/) - Guillotining is not good :) - But we didn't do a good enough job. - What's happening now in Peru, in Germany/Europe with the rise of the right. - Do they teach the role of Japan in WWII in Japan proper? - (from Pete) From personal experience in Japan: educated people believe/know the military got the country into a war that they should not have; the military pulled the wool over the eyes of the Emperor and the people. - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] Spain and laws of forgetting. - [[Spanish Civil War]] -- lots of people don't know about it enough (or at all). - [Pacto del olvido - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacto_del_olvido) / [Pact of Forgetting - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Forgetting) - https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/08/inenglish/1504869185_873265.html - [[Flancian]] on family/political history. - [[Paradox of Tolerance]]. - [[Holocaust memory]] - https://www.npr.org/2022/11/15/1136738601/clint-smith-atlantic-germany-holocaust-us-slavery-memorials - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust - [Holocaust Cinema: The Best & Worst (According to an Expert)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzxxYUgiUNM) - https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/my-trip-to-poland/ - https://www.jta.org/2021/10/01/culture/this-professor-has-seen-almost-every-holocaust-movie-ever-made-totaling-over-400-heres-what-he-learned - [[Chris Aldrich]]: [[Restorative Justice]] - [[How to end conflicts well]]? - Interesting focus of research. - [[Flancian]] interested in reading about history of revolutions this year, to learn about how societies healed after them. [[Murray Bookchin]]. - [[Peter Kaminski]] very difficult to do this. - Interesting conversation recently on how the military manipulated common people; this is part of the narrative in Germany. - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] - Othering. In Japan, "the emperor did X". - Experience of a (academic, see [link](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/my-trip-to-poland/)) in Poland. Poland has a really large problem right now with fascism. Part of it has to do with how they have pushed all responsibility about WWII to Germany. - [[Jerry Michalski]] Regarding forgetting: finding mass graves in Spain during early 2010s. - [[Pact of Forgetting]] maybe backfiring. - Had a conversation with someone from [[South Africa]] about how [[Apartheid]] is still alive and well. - [[F]] Obediencia Debida / [[Punto Final]] in [[Argentina]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Thomas Piketty]] :) - [A Brief History of Equality — Thomas Piketty \| Harvard University Press](https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674273559) - Book on ends of slavery in different nations. - United States: reversed gears at some point, taking more of the ideology of the South - #jm on [[buyouts for slaveholders]] - [The American Slave Coast: A History of the Slave-Breeding Industry, by Ned Sublette](https://app.thebrain.com/brains/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/thoughts/5c177a97-77af-490b-a00b-094bec116e54/attachments/58f6b025-b2e9-434c-8f6e-99b122964047) - "before the civil war, nobody could imagine the US surviving without slaves" - wealth was defined as owning the most lives - Thinking of the election of the speaker of the house - Most of the times there was so much contention on the election occurred before the Civil War; and then again during the rise of "White Power" movement in the 1920s - What a worrying pattern. - #jm minority eating the party, a snake eating a pig - [Transitioning of Far Right House Members into perceived moderates](https://www.salon.com/2023/01/10/marjorie-taylor-greene-wants-to-be-a-mainstream-now-sadly-the-media-will-let-it-happen/) - moving the [[Overton Window]] - control of the media - [[chris aldrich]] that compounded with [[social media]] dynamics - https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/03/twitter-political-advertisements-announcement-00076234 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/24/vaccine-ad-targeting-covid/ - https://themarkup.org/citizen-browser/2021/04/13/how-facebooks-ad-system-lets-companies-talk-out-of-both-sides-of-their-mouths - https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/11/01/dont-abolish-political-ads-social-media-stop-microtargeting/ - [Thread: "The thing that most people don't seem to understand is that surveillance capitalism means that the systems of ad tech can be very good at tracking you individually, great for use by cops, pretty nifty for propoganda, and still terrible for satisfying standard marketing outcomes."](https://twitter.com/Chronotope/status/1574062356409221122) - [[Jerry Michalski]] could we build tools for the better coordination of sanctions? - What if a [[press corps]] had a shared memory they could agree on - [[Flancian]] Coordination overhead brought down by coordination points - [[Chris Aldrich]] an academic who studied media in the middle 1920s, focusing on [[newspaper coverage]] of the [[KKK]] - Nowadays extreme views draw attention online. - [[Flancian]] on [[coordination points]] as devices for cooperation - Transferring the fewest bits necessary for establishing further cooperation / resolution of truth - [[Peter Kaminski]] a story on that - On [[Silicon Valley]]: surprised about the formal and informal structure that, once you 'get', makes everything a lot easier. - The short history of the valley starts in the [[70s]] and earlier than that. - Electronics in the area started in [[Stanford]], [[Hewlett Packard]]. - [[Innovatitor's Dilemma]] like processes: people leaving companies and starting new ones. - There was an understanding to 'look the other way' as they were all benefitting from [[promiscuous behaviour]] :) - Someone (who?) started in the 1990s and took them a while to grok the way things were doing; but once they did, the benefits were clear. - Lots of informal rules that the community settled on as an emergent process. - [[Coopetition]], both cooperative and cutthroat. Tons of legal agreements and operating procedures including banks evolved over decades to make the environment possible, though. - [[Jerry Michalski]] Silicon Valley optimizing - If you start a corporation, you usually get lots of support. - If you start a cooperative, you get crickets by default. - [Exit to Community](https://www.colorado.edu/lab/medlab/2020/08/31/exit-community-community-primer) - https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/tools-resources-categories/boards-and-governance - https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/exempt-organization-types - Legal and Finance need to know how to cooperate. - Interdisciplinarity. - [[Flancian]] this reminds me of the pattern [[golden age]] and the role of interdisciplinarity in ideal cooperative environments. - [[Chris Aldrich]] levels of [[trust]] as correlating with good cooperative environments. - How does a culture become resilient even in the face of loss. - Hard to tell of the nth order impact. - [[Story of the Chinese Farmer]] :) - [[Jerry Michalski]] related and cool: Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America (1989) https://bra.in/9pxJYK - Different groups with different cultures emigrating from Britain into the US - [[Chris Aldrich]] Woodard, Colin. American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America. 1st edition. Viking, 2011. https://www.amazon.com/American-Nations-History-Regional-Cultures/dp/0670022969. Woodard quotes Albion's Seed as a precursor to his thesis. - [[Chris Aldrich]] on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_chain_of_being as built into culture, not being questioned often enough. - [[Jerry Michalski]] This is the job of religions. Forcing [[leaps of faith]] (which also selects for people willing/able to do this). - [[Chris Aldrich]] up to the 5th century Christianity was a story of internal fights. - Orthodoxy was picked up by fragments of state, hierarchies. - [[Flancian]] [[spirituality]] vs [[religiosity]] as per [[fritjof capra]]. [[Mysticism]] as [[heterarchy]] or at least a non-mediated non-hierarchical experiency. - [[Chris Aldrich]] centralization of power in cities, vs paganism as seen mostly tied to the countryside. - [[Jerry Michalski]] Scott Reframes Barbarians as What the “Civilizers” Called the Outsiders (who were freer and healthier). in Against the Grain: A Deep History of the Earliest States (2017) - [[Aram]] not consistent across cultures - [Series about Asian cultures folklore and horror](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folklore_(TV_series)) [on HBO](https://www.hbo.com/folklore/article/everything-you-need-to-know-about-folklore-and-its-mythology). [[Freelance Shamanic Priesthood]] in Korea. - [[Mudang]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_shamanism#Mudang - A bit of an anarchic way - [[Cátaros]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] on [[Catalonia]] to [[Langue d'Oc]], etc. - Interesting cultures that were stamped out by greater hierarchical entities (e.g. Catholic Church) - [[Jerry Michalski]] paying attention to demonization - [[Anarchism]] - [[types of anarchism]] https://app.thebrain.com/brains/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/thoughts/d12b175b-7139-40f7-a80a-d196390cfe67/ - are [[anarcho capitalists]] (see: [Anarcho-capitalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism)) anarchists? - People understand something is broken but have been convinced into fraudulent explanations - [The Futuristic Empire That Never Existed | Mia Mulder](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtU_M0Sjd9Y) - [Flat Earth: A Measured Response](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gFsOoKAHZg) - [Line Goes Up – The Problem With NFTs](https://youtu.be/YQ_xWvX1n9g) - Some people want to be the boot - [Misinformation studies](https://context.center/topics/misinformation/) - #az [Capitalist Realism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_Realism) - [The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism) - [The Real Death Toll of Communism](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wflMmNTXqKk) - [The Real Death Toll of Capitalism](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HjTfm_D3sE) - [[Peter Kaminski]] "capitalism is the most efficient system by the rules of capitalism" - an [[Ontoshift]] might be needed :) - Problem of changing the future for climate change - Good book on this - [How to Blow Up a Pipeline](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51686708-how-to-blow-up-a-pipeline) - #ca Maybe we should use the [[Hoffer]] playbook? Hoffer, Eric. The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements. Perennial Classics, 2002. - [[Jerry Michalski]]: "capitalism is a cuckoo" - [[corporate]] social media, etc as cuckoos for the commons. - [[chris aldrich]] on the meme of the [[tragedy of the commons]] as an example of the same. - [The miracle of the commons](https://aeon.co/essays/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-false-and-dangerous-myth) - #ca on the issue of flyover states vs urban population centres - [[Jerry Michalski]] Handy mnemonic for farming in the US: during the civil war 80% of the population were farmers. By WWI it was 20%. now it's 1.5% (!). - [[Flancian]]: [[bolo bolo]] tries to systematize collaboration of urban and rural communities in a federated way - [Plans for the new year](https://anagora.org/2023) - [[jitsi chat]] - me says: https://doc.anagora.org/fellowship-of-the-link?edit 20:05 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:The South Lost the War but Won the Battle over Its History https://bra.in/5pdxzV Jerry Michalski says:Ghosts of Spain: Travels Through Spain and Its Silent Past Jerry Michalski says:but... 20:08 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Some have said that the holocaust was easier to memorialize in post-war Germany because there were so few Jews left as fellow citizens after-the-fact. https://www.npr.org/2022/11/15/1136738601/clint-smith-atlantic-germany-holocaust-us-slavery-memorials 20:09 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:easier? wouldn't that have made it easier to ignore? Jerry Michalski says:reason for this topic: last night I finished watching Argentina, 1985, which is very good Jerry Michalski says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina,_1985 20:10 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Easier in comparison to the white South dealing with African-Americans after the Civil War.... 20:10 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:mmmm 20:10 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Clint Smith's recent Atlantic article is possibly interesting here. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/12/holocaust-remembrance-lessons-america/671893/ 20:11 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Jerry Michalski says:You Can't Tolerate the Intolerant 20:11 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:I've heard 4 references to Popper the last few days.... 20:11 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:his PR must be working overtime... 20:11 me says:[[murray bookchin]] 20:13 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Restorative Justice has a lot of research over the past decade+ which can speak to this topic as well. 20:13 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:+1 Jerry Michalski says:which book of Bookchin's? 20:13 me says:it's a process of Othering, right? me says:Jerry: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/murray-bookchin-ursula-k-le-guin-the-next-revolution for the next revolution, foreword by Ursula Le Guin 😃 me says:and then... me says: https://www.amazon.com/Third-Revolution-Popular-Movements-Revolutionary/dp/0304335940 [[the third revolution]] me says:and other volumes 20:16 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:thanks! 20:17 me says:I am reminded of Maus 20:17 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Forgetting from the notes 20:18 me says:in Argentina there were also laws of 'forgiveness' me says:called 'obediencia debida' and 'punto final' 20:18 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:The final handful of lectures in https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/understanding-japan-a-cultural-history provide an interesting perspective on Japan's relationship with WWII. 20:19 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:It has backfired quite spectacularly. The last time I was in Spain there was anti-immigration graffiti and swastika stickers everywhere. 20:19 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Café Para Todos Jerry Michalski says:The American Slave Coast: A History of the Slave-Breeding Industry https://bra.in/2jbXbk Jerry Michalski says:minority eating the party 20:23 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Piketty, Thomas. A Brief History of Equality. Translated by Steven Rendall. Harvard University Press, 2022. https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674273559 . 20:25 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://www.salon.com/2023/01/10/marjorie-taylor-greene-wants-to-be-a-mainstream-now-sadly-the-media-will-let-it-happen/ 20:25 me says:the overton window! 20:26 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:poor overton 😃 Jerry Michalski says:he must be cold Jerry Michalski says:the Dean Scream. wow Jerry Michalski says:The Second Coming of the KKK: The Ku Klux Klan of the 1920s and the American Political Tradition (2017) ? Jerry Michalski says:put this in my Brain in Dec. 2021: Imagine the White House Press Corps During Trumps Reign... https://bra.in/2jgDYr Jerry Michalski says:a Massive Flungus? 20:32 me says: https://doc.anagora.org/fellowship-of-the-link?edit 20:33 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:The fire in my brain always seems directly related to the velocity of tabs opening in my browser... 20:33 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Terman Jerry Michalski says: https://www.netvalley.com/silicon_valley/Fred_Terman_Father_of_Silicon_Valley.html Jerry Michalski says:maybe there should be a public tab-meter? Jerry Michalski says:silicon valley became a superconductor for startups 20:35 me says:he works with "exit to community" 20:39 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:coop coalition, does that still exist? 20:39 me says:interdisciplinarity 20:40 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Design *from* Trust https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVgqsElvISM Jerry Michalski says:Avram, https://platform.coop/ Jerry Michalski says:American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America Jerry Michalski says:related and cool: Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America (1989) https://bra.in/9pxJYK 20:44 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Woodard, Colin. American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America. 1st edition. Viking, 2011. https://www.amazon.com/American-Nations-History-Regional-Cultures/dp/0670022969 . Chris Aldrich says:Woodard quotes Albion's Seed as a precursor to his thesis. 20:46 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:oh cool! Jerry Michalski says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_chain_of_being 20:47 me says:an ontology? me says:makes me think of [[ontoshift]] 20:47 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:push to orthodoxy ("right" thinking) 20:49 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide Jerry Michalski says:nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Jerry Michalski says:Scott Reframes Barbarians as What the “Civilizers” Called the Outsiders (who were freer and healthier) Jerry Michalski says:in Against the Grain: A Deep History of the Earliest States (2017) 20:52 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_shamanism#Mudang 20:54 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:To the ancient Greeks "barbarian" essentially meant one who doesn't speak Greek. 20:54 me says:I'd like to read a history of the world as hierarchy vs federalism me says:maybe Graeber wrote it in some way? 20:58 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:I mean there have to be a number of philosophic anarchists who have written good stuff on this 20:59 me says:[[better history books]] me says:Aram: yes, and I hope to meet them all 😃 or 80% of them 20:59 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:My History Canon https://bra.in/7pK4Bq Jerry Michalski says:Anarchism is that Jerry Michalski says:pay attention to demonization 21:00 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:the Barbara Streisand effect on these groups? 21:01 me says:I can really recommended [[the next revolution]] 21:01 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:pay attention to demonization Jerry Michalski says:Types of Anarchism https://bra.in/4q5zKj Jerry Michalski says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism Jerry Michalski says:sorry! I accidentally started playing our recording, which stopped 21:03 me says:harari turned me around a bit on money as an efficient/general coordination device 21:04 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:this explains Q-Anon somewhat, too 21:05 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtU_M0Sjd9Y 21:06 me says:they have traits of religions me says:and big corporations do as well 21:07 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says:[Capitalist Realism \- Wikipedia]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_Realism ) Peter Kaminski says:[The Black Book of Communism \- Wikipedia]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism ) 21:11 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Maybe we should use the Hoffer playbook? Hoffer, Eric. The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements. Perennial Classics, 2002. 21:13 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:capitalism is a cuckoo 21:16 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says:from Flancian: social media is a cuckoo (looks like a commons, but pushes out real commons) 21:18 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:the ole extend, embrace extinguish bit. Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://aeon.co/essays/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-false-and-dangerous-myth 21:18 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:capitalism moves quicker than most other systems... I think Jerry Michalski says:farming trends in the US 21:19 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says:capitalism _accelerates_ well, to use Chris's word 21:19 me says:[[bolo bolo]] tries to systematize collaboration of urban and rural communities in a federated way 21:19 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:I'd completely forgotten about bolo bolo. thank you! 21:21 me says: https://anagora.org/2023 ## 2023-01-04 - Attending: [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Flancian]] first - Then [[Jerry Michalski]] and [[Bentley Davis]] joined! - New and fresh, also cold and rainy :) - Both playing catch up with the last few weeks of 2022! - [[Chris Aldrich]] - Took a few days off with family - Rose Bowl happening soon, city disrupted :) - [[Rose Parade]] - Caught up with [[Jerry's podcast]] - [[Canvases]] and [[murder boards]] - Chris got into this space since ~2018-ish, but started keeping websites 1992-93 (took a hiatus on 1998 or so, started tinkering again on 2005) and blogging on ~2008 - Over 40000 posts (!) 47,000+ - Cross posting from own content to other targets. - [[Microformats]] - Wordpress -> social media is easier - Social media -> wordpress is more convoluted - Social media search - [[thread helper]] by [[xiq]] for [[twitter]] - [[fedisearch]]? - [[Jerry Michalski]] - "I'm interested in everything dammit" - Spoke to a Romanian connection (?) - [[Paul Rony]] from [[Kosmik]] is interested in the Tools for Thinking podcast - Umbrella topics for the podcast - People stepping in and presenting on threads, channel like or associated to channels in a community - Would like to use [[tools for thinking]] in the podcast - Paul's initial interest is mainly on the history of the field - [[J. C. R. Licklider]] - Douglas Engelbart - Vannevar Bush - .. - How to increase literacy in the field - Assessing earlier work on the basis on how it panned out, how it as influential - E.g. the earlier Finder was more in line with such-and-such vision, then features were removed. - Jerry is interested in how these visions influenced our present and future, and how modern visions are doing the same. - [[Chris Aldrich]] conversations that were built out (related to [[Seesmic]] in a distributed way starting from websites - [[Bookmarking service for audio]]. - https://huffduffer.com -> [[high frequency direction finding]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-frequency_direction_finding - When you're in a page that has audio, you can clip and annotate. - Could yield podcast annotation (and also improve production) - Example: https://huffduffer.com/search?q=tools+for+thought - #jm [[docdrop]] - #jm [[peter kaminski]] is interested in tools that take a raw youtube video and enhance them - #jm https://wiki.rel8.dev/rethinking_the_tools_for_thinking_podcast - [[flancian]] - [[fedisearch]] - [[promnesia]] - meta on podcast production starting from channels - https://anagora.org/go/agora-chapter intro could work as an outline of a podcast intro :) - [[chris aldrich]] - very nice work on the podcast wiki page - #push [[tools for thinking podcast]] - #go https://wiki.rel8.dev/tools_for_thinking_podcast - Would like to reskin to be more like [[Andy Matuschak]]'s garden. - Riverside.fm doesn't have chat. - Might go back to Zoom for that and other reasons. - [[flancian]] can I share this with Meet? - #jm yes - [[Chris Aldrich]] themability would be nice as well :) - Remixing potential - [[fediverse]] presence - @j3rry@toolsforthought.rocks - @flancian@social.coop - @chrisaldrich@mastodon.social - @BentleyDavis@toolsforthought.rocks - [[jerry michalski]] - [[neuroplasticity]] gap, as when computers first came into the workforce and touchtyping became a differentiator - been thining about how to be a [[good cyborg]] - [[chris aldrich]] when I browse your brain, I know how you structure information, and I use that. That grammar is now "built in". But when browsing other people's usage, there's more friction. - In a social media centric world, maybe you put information in X but then later you search it in Y. - #jm [[My Brain Has Comfortable Local Structure]] ~ https://bra.in/5jXDEy - [[Chris Aldrich]] film history and the development of language - [[three camera explosion]] - #jm [[Today’s Internet Is Stuck in Mainstream Media Metaphors]] https://youtube.com/shorts/yT0r6D1h_iQ?feature=share - [[grammar]] and [[language]] - #flancian [[mental model translation]], translating from [[jerry's brain]] to [[boffosocko]] parlance - [[chris aldrich]] infinite canvas on html page, essentially a [[murder board]], 2d website - How do we *do* this? - Let's all share yearly plans / 2y plans / 7y plans personally and then mind meld? - [[jerry michalski]] https://wiki.rel8.dev/bigger_goals - [[flancian]] [[revolutionary calendar]] [[agora plan]] - [[chris aldrich]] will work on this - #ca [[Feynman]] had a list of [[12 problems to work on]] - On sharing notes - [[markdown]] or [[atjson]]? - [[flancian]] unsure but prefer the earlier due to readability and wide support - [[agora yaml]] somewhere in the repo to configure knowledge integration - `/.well-known/` - #ca visual vs non visual thinking, and translation between the two - #jm [[mindtime]] model - historically oriented -> this has worked in the past - future oriented -> this is what this will yield - [[sapir whorf hypothesis]] - Jerry Michalski "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [[Santayana]] - [[learning styles]], [[neurodiversity]] - #ca on people finding e.g. they have [[adhd]] or that they're in the spectrum in their 40s and 50s. - #flancian motivating/elliciting discussions about communication styles might help people (individuals and groups) find out things about themselves, constructively ## 2022-12-28 - No attendance due to New Years :) ## 2022-12-21 - Attending: [[jerry michalski]], [[flancian]] - Start recording, we're currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser. - [[football]] - [[world cup]] final - violence, fifa, [[qatar]] - hierarchies - but also a form of art? - [[commons]] - are we irrationally hopeful? - how do egalitarians and distributed communities defend themselves against hierarchies? - [[paradox of tolerance]] - how do you build trust? - [[daryl davis]] ~ https://bra.in/6qZQZBand and his experiences with the [[ku klux klan]] - [[how can you hate me if you don't know me]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4gly9n9RBo - [[bouncers and buddhas]] by [[reddy2go]] - [[commons]] vs [[hierarchies]] - [[autopoiesis]] - [[jerry michalski]] [[nested containment]] - [[bentley davis]] - working on [[sense making]] and [[cat herding]] (actually human) - you can have [[sense making]] without others, and that's the default for many tools, but it's relatively. - [[jerry michalski]] - on the [[commons]]: [[protect]], [[defend]] and [[explore]] - [[agora]] - https://fotl.agor.ai is down :( - [[sense doing]] - [[marc antoine parent]] - there was some disagreement in the mailing list and some members left (they were not left leaning, so distinct in that sense -- a missed opportunity) - [[flancian]] can I help in some way? - [[bentley davis]] right now it's still in gestation phase, not one clear vision yet - [[jerry michalski]] there'll be another call to try to define this, probably after christmas - tried some organization, moving some of the meta to mattermost, but the [[idea loom]] app works on email only for now - more interested on the greenfield take of 'what would an ideal organization do about these matters' - [[flancian]] could we find a conservative counterpart to our group and engage on a group-to-group level? - [[bentley davis]] something like https://braverangels.org - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z-SJXlX3BdI-92X19FQNPMkK65RpsPApyw9V6U7dthk/edit#heading=h.jw9qcfe7v9uj - building a [[map]] together as a way to collaborate even as we disagree - "tell me more about that" - #push [[All that we Share]] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD8tjhVO1Tc from Denmark - [[Smartocracy]]: Social Networks for Collective Decision Making (2007 pdf) - two agoras having a conversation - idea: [[prompt engineering]] with [[chat gpt]] to interpret a well-known opponent (e.g. [[steve bannon]]) - #push [[t4t podcast]] - [[jerry michalski]] - https://wiki.rel8.dev/t4t_s01e03_-_space,_pixels_and_cognition_(yiliu_and_john) - #push [[fotl threads]] - define: - [[wiki]] / root URL - [[calendar]] URL - [[issue tracker]] / [[project tracker]] URL - [[github]] by default? ## 2022-12-14 - Attending: [[jerry michalski]] [[peter kaminski]] [[chris aldrich]] [[bentley davis]] [[eduardo ivanec]] (flancian) - [[peter kaminski]] channel suggestion - on [[ogm]] mailing lists and the purpose of [[open global mind]] - are we open, global? or more like left-leaning? - is it a discussion group or a place to get stuff done (tm) - #pk ogm as a group is getting lots done, just not strictly within that banner - #jm open question: how many OGMs are there? - #jm using social tools to make sense of our shared projects instead of individual tools - #pk [[kaffeeklatsch]] - [[chris aldrich]] in his experience with communities, the best model seen is to throw email overboard -- and to use a public [[wiki]] that is easy to edit combined with a [[chat]] that is searchable. - #jm proposal: - [[mattermost]] for chat -- [[sense doing]] - [[massive wiki]] for wiki - [[flancian]] is there a [[shared calendar]]? for meetings such as OGM's and this one. - #jm Peter has a page in a massive wiki with - is there a source of truth for other resources as well? - [[flancian]] [[sense doing]] vs [[fellowship of the link]] channels - [[sense doing]] is a wider channel associated with a particular project - [[sense doing]] #jm name/focus? - #jm relationship with [[tools for thinking]] podcast - #jm [[covid response]] is a possible case study: what would the ideal national response look like? - #jm but [[tools for thinking]] history might be a better first study case, less politically charged - [[chris aldrich]] ~ #ca - should we disable the chat in jitsi and instead use something with archival? - [[flancian]] n.b. [[wikilinks everywhere]] and agora bot - [[python]] - [[chris aldrich]] has an acquaintance that is working on "how do you get a lab working with internal communication tools to publish a subset of their information" -- a grant application could be written - [Joshua M. Greenberg](https://sloan.org/about/staff/joshua-m-greenberg) - #jm did some work in this space with [[marc antoine parent]] and [[bentley davis]] - #ca knows a group that is promoting science donations among high net worth individuals, in particular open science IT in academia - #bd I know the founder of https://qiqochat.com which has zoom integrated with several different chat and document technologies. - Jack Dorsey apparently is granting funds, too - [[librarian carpentries]] has two associated sites - #pk we have a number of projects that seem to be in this space - [[tile]], [[mosaic]] definitions could be used in this context, but we should stall on defining those - cluster of projects -> project - [[bentley]] [[hyperknowledge]] - #jm [[idea loom]] - misc from jitsi chat - "kaffeeklatsch" - it's just a fun word 😃 - "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Wrexham - the deadpan Welsh translator: https://youtu.be/2g3m9p35cDo?t=40 - email threads are impossible - says:email threads exception that proves the rule: Linux kernel mailing list - and email is difficult to archive well - caveat 1: someone needs to maintain it all... - The IndieWeb has an interactive bot that does help to capture from chat into the wiki, but that requires some programming lift to get done. - France vs. Morocco, FIFA World Cup 2022™ - for soccer, it's always the first five minutes and last five minutes. - Vikings got to Morocco in AD 859: https://www.heritagedaily.com/2022/12/the-vikings-in-africa/145505 - DocDrop - WebRTC clients - also BigBlueButton - HedgeDoc is kinda complex for people to edit together - anagora.org/fotl has all the chats I've dumped from here (or most) - SenseDoing - name? - focus? - #push [[sensedoing]] - [SenseDoing channel](https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/ogm-sensedoing) - active conversation is mostly in the [[ogm list]] ## 2022-12-07 - Attending: [[jerry michalski]] [[peter kaminski]] [[bentley davis]] [[flancian]] ### Thinking Tools Map Project - website now published, - \o/ - exciting progress on massive wiki -- Peter presents - hacked massive wiki theme to have a notice bar :) - had to get involved with some [[css frameworks]] - turns out that many sites seem fine with the menu scrolling with the content, having no fixed navbar, etc. - bentley: can offer CSS help, has experience - (airtable review) - #push [[massive wiki wednesday]] - https://hackmd.io/95GfL68PRsSc7wieGMgdAQ (temp location only) - moving from github to maybe [[codeberg]] - hoping to have Phase 0 done next week some time - [[permanent versions]] - a wiki is supposed to be changing all the time -- so giving a link to a page has always felt slightly weird to Peter, as the target will have changed by the time the recipient clicks on it - how to version? - point in time / commit, offer a link to HEAD? - approach: - sha256 / hashing based approach / content based addressing - of an html snapshot - flancian: this might introduce dependencies on particular rendering engines - comparison vs ipfs actual content based addressing - (...) - on [[codeberg]] forking [[gitea]] - thoughts on [[chat gpt]] - 'automatic explanations' for change management/changes in a wiki - three word (or whatever) navigation to a particular git hash (sort of like the interface presented by [what3words](https://what3words.com/)) - making git history more easily navigable by non-technical / non-Git experts - date-anchored vs content-anchored - interwiki links - #push [[gordon brander]] and [[subconscious]] - [[jerry michalski]] talked with him on Monday - [[noosphere]] would love to have at least a subset of Jerry's brain \o/ - #push [[paul rony]] -- the founder of [[kosmik]] (sp?) - [[french]] - loves computer history - a podcast / community / etc. to talk about: - early visionaries (e.g. [[vannevar bush]]) - how does that bridge into new tools and visions - [[flancian]] - https://fotl.agor.ai - [[agora bridge]] approach / trying to reuse at least importing steps - [[jerry michalski]] -- take [[visions]] https://bra.in/2pxbo6 as a starting point, do nth degree crawling - [[peter kaminski]] - [[meme brane]] - https://memebrane.conversence.com - [[jerry's brain]] in a postgresql database, where each node is a row - note that Jerry doesn't use node titles - the above already don't map 1:1/well to [[massive wiki]] data structures - we're all representing information but that information has different shapes - lossy translations can be very lossy - [[flancian]] - (something optimist) - [[jerry michalski]] - most of his brain would usually end up looking like small markdown files with a link - [[peter kaminski]] relatively easy to move data brain -> massive wiki, but it's not obvious how to go the other way - https://mcbrain.netlify.app/brainish/jerry/32f9fc36-6963-9ee0-9b44-a89112919e29 ## 2022-11-16 - Attending: [[peter kaminski]] [[jerry michalski]] [[mathew lowry]] [[flancian]] [[chris aldrich]] - Start recording, we're currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser. - #pull [[fotl threads]] - Mastodon servers related to our topics - also see: - https://pkm.social/ - https://toolsforthought.rocks/ - [[flancian]] https://social.coop ;) commons friendly! - [[check ins]] - [[mathew lowry]] is back! - still coughing, seeing a specialist -- but nothing serious it seems, getting better. - massive.wiki progressing - here to say hello mostly but also to touch on the progress in this project :) - exploring mastodon: 2 posts so far, become a server mod, trying to connect EU to Europe - pulled out of PKGBook: preparing several posts - found several documents relevant to the dimensionality discussion through [[fotl]], has been researching - [[jerry michalski]] - [[mathew lowry]] last time we saw each other, Jerry was in Budapest - last week in the [[linux foundation]] summit, funny for two reasons - [[April Rinne]] gave a speech - [[OpenSSF]] ~ open [[supply chain security]] - marinated many ideas/projects in a pool of open source for a week - [[peter kaminski]] - [[thinking tools map project]] often meets 2h earlier during [[Massive Wiki Wednesday]] - decided to [[expand the kimono]] (letting more people in?) - (aside: "open the kimono" means "let others peek inside our business" -- this expression comes from business/finance/vc/enterprise world) - - [[chris aldrich]] - on PKG book: same issue as Mathew had, dropped out partly because of the abysmal contract language. - [[mathew lowry]] there was also a lack of alignment in perspectives. - [[chris aldrich]] terms were severe enough that it sounded like authors needed to pay them (for further editions?) - mastodon activity - it needs to be more than "free twitter" - seeing people make the same assumptions/maybe mistakes as in previous waves - [[mathew lowry]] blog post "am I on the right Mastodon instance?" https://mathewlowry.medium.com/am-i-on-the-right-mastodon-instance-a0aee14ca00f - how to find the right instance remains unsolved - affinity (over which dimensions?) - [[flancian]] similar to the tools for thought map problem - #push [[map of the fediverse]] - https://fediverse.party - https://the-federation.info/#projects - geographical proximity - 7k new instances over the last week or so - #jm doesn't sound like that much? - #ml power law distribution - stress test of the fediverse - #ca many new instances are probably well meaning but might still go up in flames/smoke too soon (historical data shows this is likely) - #ca the indieweb approach of 'local first, then syndicate' is resilient to this - archival program - #jm is google indexing the fediverse? - mostly yes, but maybe not very highly ranked currently - [[mathew lowry]] let's talk more about the mapping project next week 2h earlier than this call? - notes from earlier today: https://hackmd.io/Ec8Wxpe0S5y7g-yCb6tVUA?both - see also the massive wiki: [[go/ttm]] - [[jerry michalski]] - on [[decision trees]] for things like buying consuming electronics - [[peter kaminski]] [[wirecutter]] - [[flancian]] on browsing paths as potentially informing the construction of such trees - [[metasj]] [[hunch]] ~ hunch.com -- saddened it didn't produce such a thing - "[[pachinko process]]" :) - [[flancian]] - [[knowledge commons]] - attended [[synthesis infrastructures workshop]] last Sunday (thanks [[metasj]] in absentia!) - https://synthesis-infrastructures.wiki/ has a lot of interesting + relevant content - [[agora]] - two main focuses over the next month or so: - [[agor.ai]] bring up more agoras finally (containerized) - [[fediverse]] support (see also below) - [[fediverse]] - https://moa.party seeing a lot of activity - [[mathew lowry]]: you never got back to me about moa.party not working ;) - [[flancian]] sorry about that! I still need to peek into the database to see what's up there, I have no idea why it's not working for that - https://social.coop same - [[sj]] - discourse graph tools - there's been a mapping project -- how can we use existing tools for thought for this purpose? - "here is the umbrella discourse graph for the optimal design for X / approaches to carbon sequestration" - this group in particular has a few hundred roam graphs (!) - if you have been dealing with questions/assertions/claims in your graphs, reach out because they're looking for examples of how people deal with this on the field - #jm https://www.societylibrary.org/ and https://forby.io - [[bentley]] and https://canonicaldebatelab.com/ - if people want to share research and experiences in paper or close-to-paper format, [[sj]] is happy to connect those with a potential audience :) - maybe the pkg book chapters could be a good fit? will tell [[mathew lowry]] - [[chris aldrich]] (on repurposing) - (leading to self-plagiarism, plagiarism :) [[the ecstasy of influence]] https://harpers.org/archive/2007/02/the-ecstasy-of-influence/ - Chris's daughter on learning things: "[[myself told myself]]" - #jm Pop Culture (live mashup) by Madeon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTx3G6h2xyA - how do you decide when people are talking about the same thing? - [[sj]] ''[[coralline]]'' approaches to discovery+syndication: allowing separate author, curator, reader tags to help match readers to writing https://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Sj/coralline - [[sj]] I want supporting moderation/filtering as close to the reader as possible (informed by lists and flags maintained/curated by polycentric network), e.g. storing context and archives and prefs/filtering/indexes locally: disk continues to compress. 512GB microsd now < $25 https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Android-Computer-Console-Bluetooth/dp/B0B81B4GXC - placeholder - check [[fotl threads]]? ## 2022-11-09 - [[the expanse]] - #jm [A Big Inspiration for OGM Is to Build the “Epstein Drive” for Civilization’s Memory and Decisions](https://bra.in/9qE7rK) ("Epstein Drive" is from The Expanse) - [[ui]] innovations ;) - #jm [[minority report]] -> [[gspeak]] http://www.oblong.com/g-speak/ - #jm [[betaworks podcast]] https://open.spotify.com/episode/5rELqjWh8GHBgvmqVHBBmA (fav) - https://techcrunch.com/2010/10/15/hands-on-with-the-mit-media-labs-g-speak-interface/ - [[check ins]] - [[flancian]] - social.coop work - fediverse - [[agora chapter]] - [[jerry michalski]] - near [[tahoe]], [Resort at Squaw Creek](https://www.destinationhotels.com/squawcreek) - [[linux foundation]] is having its member summit, - helping facilitate a meeting - two stories - talking to someone working on medicare, asked a question -- someone else answered :) - duopoly on hospital information systems is in place - [[open ehr]] could be the best path - [[futurewei]] -- future oriented think tank by [[huawei]], https://www.futurewei.com/ - Huawei, [[OpenHarmony]] - how do you bridge open source across political boundaries? - interesting take on "[[intellectual property]]" and political boundaries (and global macroeconomics): [[[The End of the Road to Serfdom]] by Cory Doctorow](https://doctorow.medium.com/the-end-of-the-road-to-serfdom-bfad6f3b35a9) - #jm [[franklin]] made a living without paying any royalties; [[quakers]] "borrowing" the fondant method by swiss - impressed by the scope of projects being supported by the [[linux foundation]] - trying to articulate the [[rel8]] project: [[shared memory]] - [[rebuilding ukraine]] as a project - [How to prepare your house for an active wartime? : NoStupidQuestions](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/sbmt6d/how_to_prepare_your_house_for_an_active_wartime/) - [[chris aldrich]] align with external economic incentives, e.g. Japan after ww2? - #jm Japanese optics technology came from plans/designs that were retrieved from [[zeiss]] Germany by the US - [[peter kaminski]] worked in telcos in the 80s, saw some degree of [[learned helplessness]] (AT&T could do no wrong) - #jm interesting contrast with what happened in the auto industries in these countries, [[deming]] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_Deming - #pk then cargo culting [[just in time]] back from [[toyota]] - #jm [[obeya]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obeya - [[peter kaminski]] used to work an [[enterprise wiki]] company, got exposure to [[obeya]] rooms - #jm stamping system for consensus-management on proposals, based on paper. angle encodes agreement. - #pk wikipedia editing cultures, on how to create a wiki page us/japan/germany - [[chris aldrich]] solutions going from the top to the bottom and then "pinging back up" in a company structure - [[peter kaminski]] - Thinking Tools Map Project still chugging along, we're still working on "dimensions" and making good (but slow) progress. We're using Airtable for some of our brainstorming about dimensions. - our brainstorming Airtable, take it all with a grain of salt: https://airtable.com/invite/l?inviteId=invNGlDl702PpLJw0&inviteToken=6d20ee0fcda6d460240d202c746e1c408db3cf8202a55a860135f3489e498976 - random tool: [[Quillbot]] looks like a useful writing tool, including different paraphrasing modes and AI summarization (I signed up for a 1-year subscription) - [[Lex.page]] is an up-and-coming writing tool with a nice, friendly interface, and has some AI features - dimensions discussion - focused on what [[user friendliness]] means - (demo) :) - [[bentley davis]] - no checkin today - on the interactions between the tools graph and what [[canonical debate lab]] needs/has done - [[chris aldrich]] - [[betaworks tft]]: https://www.betaworks.com/media - [[composability]] vs [[interoperability]] - #pk structurally similar, but at different hierarchical levels (interoperability is "outside the system") - microsoft approach of 'integrating' open source projects and providers, but adding a proprietary overlay ## 2022-11-02 - Attending: [[peter kaminski]] [[chris aldrich]] [[aram zucker-scharff]] [[jerry michalski]] [[flancian]] - [[peter kaminski]] [[airtable]] - #push [[thinking tools map]] - working on [[project plan]] prior to bringing it to the [[fellowship of the link]] - https://dainty-sable-264aa3.netlify.app/project/measuring_thinking_tools.html - [[chris aldrich]] [[openness]] axis seems too dense - we should also assume that developers will tackle the low hanging fruit / perform minimum effort to tick a box if that's within reach :) - [[mathew lowry]] is keen on keeping the number of dimensions low-ish, 6-8 dimensions - which would look nice in a spidergraph - [[chris aldrich]] also makes sense to apply the pareto principle - [[calendar]] https://calendar.google.com/calendar/event?action=TEMPLATE&tmeid=NW8zbXUzOXAxMWZxNjlydGFwcWV0YnNnZWQgcGV0ZXIua2FtaW5za2lAbQ&tmsrc=peter.kaminski%40gmail.com - [[flancian]] link doesn't seem to work? - [[aram zucker-scharff]] interoperability - easiest way is to piggyback on what they're already doing - people onboarding onto [[mastodon]] - people coming up with lots of new things in the tool space -- many requiring to sign in with both mastodon and twitter - [[chris aldrich]] no algorithmic feed, fewer features -- as a feature :) - instances are more like twitter lists, at a similar level - [[mastodon]] vs the rest of the [[fediverse]], e.g. [[lemmy]] / [[pleroma]] - [[bluesky]] - associated with [[twitter]], but - [[pfrazee]] - #jm is there something better than ActivityPub/Mastodon for people that want a replacement? - [[flancian]] don't know anything promising currently that is not ActivityPub based - [[pleroma]] [[lemmy]] [[misskey]] are all built on top of ActivityPub too - [[advertising]] as an option to individuals funding instances as hobby projects - [[coops]] as another option - #azs [[data coops]] - #jm book about quakers / morals and [[travelling brothers]] - history of [[guilds]] - industrial revolution starts to hit, early capitalists realize they need to undermine the guild system - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4467218-travelling-brothers?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=wM2PoCC5zD&rank=12 - [[apprentice]] -> [[yeomen]] -> [[master]] - [[masterpiece]] is what the [[yeomen]] had to build to become a master - "advertising is the colonizing force of capitalism in internet spaces" - [[mutual aid]] societies yielded technologies like [[insurance]] - it feels like we're trying to find our way back to some of these concepts - #azs book on modern unions - you can't get to the revolution until people feel safe - Ah i was thinking of [[Fight Like Hell]] by Kim Kelly ## 2022-10-26 - Attending: [[peter kaminski]] [[chris aldrich]] [[flancian]] [[bentley davis]] [[maparent]] [[samuel klein]] - Second call on [[Wednesday]]. - Recording in Jitsi only works in Chromium. - No firefox, no safari for now. - Worth filing a bug. - Last time recap - Integration of tools for thought - Hyperknowledge and Agora - Debate tools and quality of discourse as they relate to the political scene - Check ins - [[maparent]] - Discussed a lot of common issues in [[free jerry's brain]] meeting on Monday. - In there we spoke about [[hyperknowledge]] and [[next actions]] as well. - Among other things, made a plea for [[concept glue]] between systems. - Deep links, deep addressability aspects seem key. - Making cross linking easy. - Bentley brought up: we could achieve a better understanding by trying some use cases and seeing which kind of maps do we want to build off real data. - [[flancian]] we had a pending AI from a previous meeting that - [[frame views]] URLs for concepts and for frames centered around that thing - [[flancian]] sounds similar to [[nodes]] - [[chris aldrich]] lots of note taking tools are text based, and backing databases are non public / don't have URLs - #map deep linking and addressability is indeed about having a URL for each block even in those scenarios - [[web annotations]] use ranges, we could have the same for markdown - "xpath for markdown" - +1 - web annotation targets for markdown - [[flancian]] what about wikilinks as anchors within notes? - #map semantic ambiguity - #flancian Not sure - #map doesn't work in the general case as it's only controlled by the writer - #flancian: fair - #maparent look at at-json - 'this thing in this document at this time' -- [[memento protocol]] for example - "memento protocol over massive wiki" - could map to a git commit in the case of git backed repositories - [[chris aldrich]] could be resolved via internet archive for the web in the general case when that is available - [[maparent]] Actually used by web archive. See http://timetravel.mementoweb.org/about/ - [[meta]] how do we track of 'interesting threads' like that above? - [[peter kaminski]] what about a shared page? - -> AI: create a document/repository location and designate it as first version of this :) - [[Peter Kaminski]] - [[Thinking Tools Map Project]] update - [[mathew lowry]] did a fair amount of work - some of our project work got out of sync but it's being merged - realization: we had not set up a way to do collaboration beforehand, both platform and convention level - -> [[massive wiki channel]] in [[ogm mattermost]] - - - collaborating over chat is relatively hard, threading is only basic - [[github issues]] and branches - maybe a document workflow with comments would be lighterweight? - Note: issues in git (vs github) with [GitBug](https://github.com/MichaelMure/git-bug) - Looked again at Markdown parsers (particularly those that can create ASTs, because that's a sign of development organization and quality) - [remark](https://unifiedjs.com/explore/project/remarkjs/remark/) + [micromark](https://github.com/micromark/micromark) (JavaScript) - [mistletoe](https://github.com/miyuchina/mistletoe) (Python) - [[flancian]] the Agora (Python) currently uses [[marko]], but mistletoe looks superior at first glance - [[markdoc]] is an extended [[markdown]] syntax created/used by [[stripe]] - [[schema]] - [[people]] [[tools]] [[techniques]] - #map [[goals]] maybe as a separate category, or [[intent]] - maybe also [[audience]] - -> AI: add to threaded document. - Wishing there were typed links in Markdown - [[flancian]] in the Agora, links are typed/annotated by the preceding one (or tag) - @scalingsynthesis uses prefixes: https://anagora.org/@scalingsynthesis - [[chris aldrich]] [[microformats]] could be part of a link - #map [[yaml]] blocks could go anywhere? - [[supertag]] syntax is growing on him - see Gyuri's work on Trailmarks - [[sj]] - I think a good 80% solution for reconciling different types into a single namespace is to support [[TOPIC (qualifier)]], have it rendered while reading as just TOPIC, and have the link to [[TOPIC (qualifier)]] redirect to any of: "TOPIC", TOPIC (qualifier)", "TOPIC#qualifier" etc. which authority file can be updated by any editor of the markdown network (and may change as people take time to fill out nodes for increasingly specific variations on the topic). - very similar to what i came to - [[flancian]] have been meaning to collect a list of repositories which we would like integrate into a shared construct (agora wink wink) -- do you have any? - [[peter kaminski]] massive wiki is agnostic w.r.t. versioning and sharing models (or tries to be) - for git, [[massive wiki]] can have submodules - [[massive wiki builder]] will build - do you have note repositories of your own, personal or otherwise? - [[peter kaminski]] have one but not currently shareable :) - AI: suggest we keep discussing this in future instances - [[sister sites]], sister pages - twin pages - interwiki - web rings :) - wiki [[collaboration primitives]] - Instant wikilinks / cascading wikisheets: implicit interwiki resolution (a la https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/InstantCommons) :: make the local .cws legible so you can see the order in which your current interface looks for matching nodes in choosing the default interwiki - try variation that chooses cascade order based on length/quality of target node - try interface variation that shows top N options in asymmetric list/pie - [[fedwiki]] is brilliant but the feeling of the room is that we don't fully understand it - is there people building any kind of business providing fedwiki widely/easily? - https://byname.wiki.conversence.com - sj: update vocab to distinguish meki from wiki - #map [[coauthor]] https://coauthor.conversence.com - Q: [[sj]] how to capture third-party cross-wiki page-name-maps? e.g. say we read together a dozen sources, which are not generally world editable, and are building (in a shared space) interwiki links + merge requests across the set of pages in those sources. - [[maparent]] this is what I meant by "glue" earlier, it's a core [[HyperKnowledge]] goal - AIs - AI: start a [[tracking document]] for tracking pending interesting threads - done -> [[fotl threads]] - AI: Then let's do a pass collecting all useful links we already have in this node and in [[fotl]] and move them to [[fotl threads]]. - AI: Let's move communications over chat for the above projects to the [[fellowship of the link]] channel by default, or share links there to other sources of truth. - AI: let's discuss wiki [[collaboration primitives]] and the potential of integrating independent note taking repositories/wikis a la massive wiki / agora - AI: add schema section to [[fotl threads]] - AI: upload recording to some well known location :) - [[bentley]] suggest putting the raw file in drive first ## 2022-10-19 - Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Chris Aldich]] [[Mark-Antoine Parent]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Jack Park]] - First call on [[Wednesday]]. - (joined late.) - [[Supermind]] - [[Storyspace]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storyspace - [[Tinderbox]] - [[Mark Bernstein]] http://www.eastgate.com/garden/Enter.html - [[Classification axis]] for [[tools for thought]] - [[Peter Kaminski]] -> [[massive wiki]] for this: https://dainty-sable-264aa3.netlify.app/project/project_plan - [[Mathew Lowry]] is working on the particular dimensions - [[Marc-Antoine Parent]]'s doc with dimensions: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AY6y-uHUQE82zfLgwZLk29VPTaI1P5AMo6HT8zz1WDU/edit - Previous [[radar chart]]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hY2V5NoSS713R2wzcjBE2q5KZIlfMOPFtL9g6Gaop_o/edit#gid=0 - [[Peter Kaminski]] on a tool called [Scrintal](https://www.scrintal.com/) - [[Jack Park]] [[LiteNet]] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m56SHPGgeFfB_3ToO9-VB9Yu266wtS5-9xlwaFeJ68k/edit - [[Marc-Antoine Parent]] - [[Fermat]] - [[Tools for thought rocks]] https://lu.ma/tftrocks-oct22 - [[flancian]] - what could we do with what we already know, even with an incomplete map? - [[marc antoine]] [[hyperknowledge maps]] https://hyperknowledge.org/HyperKnowledge.mp4 - we want: - [[deep hyperlinks]] - deep [[anchoring]] (new, a la [[web annotations]]) - many to many relationships between anchors and entities - [[flancian]] we probably want this second level map for projects that are trying to work on interlinking - preconditions: - backlinks - supple many:many relationships between anchor text and meaning - [[agora]] - [[interlinking]] - [[push]] [[pull]] [[go]] - [[maparent]] focusing on the differences: - [[deep backlinks]] - any single idea will be in millions of contexts, how to keep the graph "readable" - attribution/degree of belief - surface surprising beliefs, beliefs that could be questioned - [[jerry michalski]] deck of patterns for cognitive biases - swipe right / swipe left? :) - [[jerry michalski]] real world example - half of the republicans running now *say* that the election was stolen - should this ideally disqualify them? - #map ~ [[maparent]] we want to qualify belief by track record, e.g. the work of [[superforecasters]] - distinguish empty claims from testable claims - what's the minimum set of coordinated actions we could take to maximize the chances this great crowdsourcing effort happens? - hashtags/wikilinks as one way to coordinate -- but might not be enough? - [[chris aldrich]] the [[instagram problem]] - [[flancian]] the Agora tries to make it so that the community can cross-link oportunistically/share entities and auto link - [[maparent]] worried about ambiguity still regardless of whether they are autogenerated or human generated - [[chris aldrich]] on the recent controversy in US politics with racially charged comments by politicians - #map [[dao]] and [[smart contracts]] -- enforced accountability - #jm [[lexon]] as a human readable [[dsl]] for contracts - #map working on a plan and a prototype for [[hyperknowledge]] - [[chris aldrich]] how to push actors towards more precise speech (to counteract Trump's style of not saying anything but convincing some people he is aligned with them, even in the centre left initially) - two kinds of self organization: - self organization around a shared goal in a self-selected group - coordinated action in a very large scale ## 2022-10-14 - The band is back together! After a while :) - Attending: [[jerry michlski]] [[aram zucker scharff]] [[chris aldrich]] [[flancian]] [[bentley]] - [[jerry michalski]] - hope to see [[fotl]] be a guiding project for [[rel8]] - [[check ins]] / what are we up to? - [[flancian]] - [[work]] - [[flancia]] - [[agora]] - [[pkg book]] -- just got back feedback - [[chris aldrich]] - About the terms of the book: they're using an academic publishing model, very little benefit for the writers - (Looks like the publisher is https://exapt.press) - Chris is likely dropping out - #jm if you were to create a version of this book that was more interesting, what would it look like? - [[aram]] maybe doctorow-like? - [[agora]] 2nd anniversary on ~[[2022-11-15]] - [[chris aldrich]] - interested in [[cosma]] - (this led to a very interesting overview of promising tools) - [[bentley]] - list of [[tools for thought]] - [[canonical debate lab]] - [[debate tools]] ~ [[tools for thought]] in some perspective - [[jerry michalski]] - one week in a conference called [[unfinished]] - very interesting Brazilians, including [[Macul]] - [[keynote]] [[trust is the only way forward]] - [[lithuania]] - [[policy keys]] is trying to gamify policy discussions - deconstructing arguments into pros and cons - [[bottleneck issues]], [[hot issues]] - [[aram zucker scharff]] - mostly real life work since last time :) - work in the privacy space; GDPR, Virginia and California privacy regulations. Have been reading lots of documents. - spotted an interesting project - working on an archival tool for tweets, dealing with the issue that [[an increasing amount of people are deleting old tweets]], and also with styling issues - [[flancian]] maybe check out [[nitter]] code - wdyt about [[threader]] (app)? - possible time/day of the week for the next call? - Wed at 10? - Aram: **11am** better - Thu? -> Mattermost ## 2022-09-16 - Attending: [[jerry michalski]] [[marc antoine]] [[mathew]] [[stacey druss]] - #push [[canonical debate lab]] - [[maparent]] presents - [[argument technologies]] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQShF0J3lGmIFACTvt5FLQWnKc1YdRaaCEDvRJlcUT8/edit?usp=sharing - map of [[tools for thinking]] - [[airtable]] approach, preferred structured to unstructured - knowledge management definition plan - [[jerry michalski]] - spider diagram - [[CI features and goals]] document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AY6y-uHUQE82zfLgwZLk29VPTaI1P5AMo6HT8zz1WDU/edit - seven dimensions - list of functional features - [[jerry michalski]] argumentation or debate as a view in an environment that facilitates collection, tagging and eventually policy making - grid making / dimensionality of the space we're exploring - [[flancian]] exploring a [[hypergraph]] as the target common data structure / exchange convention? - start with no typing, define required typing within the hypergraph (it's meta) - #push [[hyperknowledge]] https://hyperknowledge.org/hyperknowledge-components-1.html - classification / the meta problem - high dimensionality matrix - [[mathew]] but who will want to do that kind of work? defining the dimensions, then actually filling in that sort of space - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17cnrfNVwh_ETZDbfCIw-XV_t2zmwP2jJHCKUJIY0nGg/edit?usp=sharing - [[]] - [[syntax]] for modeling - paraphrasing each other - [[flancianization]] - [[mathew lowry]] [[change my mind]] analysis, [[change my mind reddit]] - #ml wdyt about [[you are not so smart]]? - [[marc antoine]] loved [[the enigma of reason]] #2017 - #jm https://bra.in/6qzdab - [[shared purpose]] as a prerequisite for collective meaning - "why do you believe this" - [[stacey]] flexibility: it's important to not have to attach something in precisely the right point - also: when you put the arguments in the map, I'm answering an abstract position (represented in the map) that is not necessarily that of a particular person (so it gets defused) - #jm [[fake lie detector]] in [[the wire]] - it might be possible to identify what someone is saying in real time - reduce the delay between utterance and fact check - live scoring would help - #ml [[ministry of truth]] ~ [[map]] as a risk - #map [[cdl]]'s plan is to organize claim information; #map wants to provide a sort of [[claim overlay]] - truth roots - adversaries, [[drake equation]] - #push [[canonical debate lab]] - [[white paper]] https://github.com/canonical-debate-lab/paper/blob/master/README.mediawiki - [[democracy earth foundation]] - [[forgiveness]] - [[building bridges]] - #jm [[reconciliation commission]] for companies, [[truth and reconciliation]] process - [[election fraud]] claims - [[stacey druss]] looked into the cases behind the claim, case by case, and found that there were cases were people were being hurt and that we could have helped - #jm my notes for this call: https://bra.in/3qaEeE - https://sfpeace.org/ - #map - [[deliberate polling]] - [[the enigma of reason]] -- when people talk together, we get better results - recursive approach, exploit alpha/delta ## 2022-08-26 ## Attending: - [[Gene]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Bentley]] - Late: [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[mathew lowry]] ### Videos ### Notes - Introductions! - [[jerry michalski]] ~ #jm - on previous calls - on sometimes having overlap in different dimensions but not having shared clarity/understanding - sharing clarity vs rambling - happens even at the organizational level when you're trying to set up a mission statement - [[motherhood statements]] ~ "we believe in X", "we believe in Y" -- but we're usually looking for nuggets of novelty - [[numenta]] - would like to jump into a "digested format" - [[prediction framework]] - as [[society of mind]] - #push [[Gene]] and [[Jerry Michalski]] go way back - [[system thinker]] -> [[storyteller]] - #go https://bra.in/8vGe9q - married and divorced [[the brain]] multiple times - uses [[napkin]] - [[richard maxis]] ~ [[richard macksey]], former Johns Hopkins University professor with a large personal library - #push [[richard macksey]] - [[library background]] - https://app.thebrain.com/brains/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/thoughts/34f84a89-4bc2-46f5-ac9b-b3ba8e8bff11/notes - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rvXUHI331k - [[umberto eco]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czc_KjWji8E - [[library tours]] - Spider chart example - reusable ethical services might be a competitive advantage of tools in the [[commons]] - commercial tools seem to have an advantage in the current market -- they get the backing of the market "leads" (VC, etc.) which lets them out-compete freer options - uber is not a [[fair marketplace]], yet it outcompeted more ethical alternatives - on the [[hypocrisy]] of "fake markets" -- platforms that behave like markets but are controlled by a single entity - #push [[fake markets]] - https://bra.in/8vBe4W - [[chris aldrich]] ~ #ca if we did [[spider graphs]], how do you select axis to focus on? - how do we present this information in a way that prioritizes the ethical aspect, and perhaps helps tool developers prioritize lacking dimensions? - #jm selecting dimensions in different contexts - #jm finding which tools are missing, which tools are complementary - "which tools play well with each other" - #ca another thing which is important to people in this space: even though [[obsidian]] is not open source, people find it easy to develop against it and it's got open source extensions - so it seems unlikely they will turn into a new Twitter - but even in that case it seems you could move to other players which are more open - [[bentley]] implemented [[filtering]] in [[spider graphs]] (demo) - #jm what is [[indieweb]]'s perspective on convincing people to build openly? - #ca #push [[indieweb]] they have built a structure on a two prong idea: - you own your own domain name - [[flancian]] ~ #f what about weakening this into "you own some URL space" - #ca it's possible, but at the end of the day you want to own what a URL resolves to - the ecosystem is developing in the direction of letting you redirect between domains - you have control over your data - #jm what about separating data from apps, e.g. storing on github? - as in, you map any new tool to the same existent dataset - #ca you can point tools in [[indieweb]] to repositories of data - #ca #push [[micropub]] is a spec; a "data plug board" that allows people to easily write apps that publish events to different consumers - #go https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/ - a post goes first to your website - then the website has the know how on how to publish to feeds - [[bookmark service]] is the [[hello world]] here - [[medium]] could rewrite its backend to support [[micropub]] and it would let you cross post to many other sites - #f how does this interact with [[activitypub]]? - #ca it fits in this model but it's a steeper learning curve - in most of the AP space, if you don't interop with [[mastodon]], you don't exist - lots of tools target [[mastodon]] as it supports some core things well - [[aram zucker]] - guide to [[activitypub]]: https://tinysubversions.com/notes/reading-activitypub/ - #push [[fotl agenda]] - the field of [[x clone]] in the [[fediverse]] - no single AP client that supports all features - [[lemmy]] as an interesting example of new platform built on [[activitypub]] - [[goodreads]] functionality - #ca https://indieweb.org/personal_library#Silo_Examples - back to meta level here? - on mapping of the fediverse, of tools? - or [[spider charts]] - #f [[go/t4t radar]] points to the chart (- and + also work for spaces) - which categories do we want here? - linking articles to support scores/opinions - #f [[assertion feeds]] - #jm spreadsheet is easily embeddable to begin with - #ml publishing markdown/resources to repositories and sharing that - #f [[gardens]] and [[feeds]]? :) - #ml can we add domains/repositories to what is searching? - #f yes - [[aram zucker-scharff]] ~ [[az]] - #jm [[noosphere]] - #ca most of the big commercial offerings allow people to store data on [[dropbox]] or [[google drive]] - [[agora]] could enable people to move from [[dropbox]] to [[git]] based workflows - micropub spec ostensibly could be used for moving from platform [[x]] to platform [[y]] - [[solid]] and [[solid like]] - [[mathew lowry]] ~ #ml - [[mysilio]] https://github.com/mysilio-co - [[jerry michalski]] will host a [[podcast]] - default topics: - [[startups]] to motivate a [[bootcamp]] - [[chris aldrich]] - who else should we invite? - [[anne laure]] - [[maggie appleton]] - [[anthropology]] [[history]] background - [[andy matuschak]] - [[cory doctorow]] - #list https://twitter.com/i/lists/1437865198346379264/members - [[commons]] - [[knowledge commons]] - #ml [[global commons]] usually means [[global english commons]], although that can be generalized with AI - "[[The Eighth Coalition]]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Days - #ca [[lukasa]] as materialized [[method of loci]] - [[pacific navigators]] - [[steam ships]] as bad for lifeboats because people lost knowledge on the working of [[currents]] - [[Lifeboat]]: A History of Courage, Cravenness, and Survival at Sea (2003) - For more on pacific islanders' migration: [[Life on the Rim]] (as in Pacific rim) - #meta #ml let's set up a [[doodle]]? - ([[flancian]] dropped here.) - (A copy of the default Agenda goes below) - [[names]] for the project that has already started :) - [[flancian]] my proposal is, well, you know what I call it :) - would love to discuss [[agora protocol]] with you - is the heart of the [[Agora]] - it is what you and me define it to be :) - feedback welcome :) - where are you [[feeds]] and [[gardens]]? - [[flancian]] note my daily feed shows up as part of https://anagora.org/journals which is an aggregation of daily posts by all users, - if you tell me about your feeds and gardens I could add them (like everything Agora related, everything is optional always and offered as a token of friendship!) - [[commonplace books]] - [[mathew lowry]] let's create some distributed map of thinking tools: https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/pl/78gprua18frkpc6shrxabricqo ![](https://doc.anagora.org/uploads/upload_888c6fbb5753be41ddb48290c35d505d.png) - #jm https://bra.in/5qeDMg - #jm [[spider charts]] - looks like a [[polar chart]] - what are the axes? visualization, openness, artificial intelligence, etc. ML: also the different notetaking techniques CJA: What are the building blocks and affordances they provide so one can have a progressively improved/complex experience - ![](https://doc.anagora.org/uploads/upload_4735686c23bc31c6dcf2b9e44eeeed00.png) - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hY2V5NoSS713R2wzcjBE2q5KZIlfMOPFtL9g6Gaop_o/edit#gid=0 - solving for [[sustainability]] / [[viability]] of a healthy knowledge ecosystem - funding, donations between readers and writers - nested conversations, how to solve for: - [[communities]] - [[startups]] / companies - [[jerry michalski]] camp - People we should invite here? ## 2022-08-19 ### Attending [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Mathew Lowry]] [[Dan Whaley]] ### Video ### Agenda - [[2022-08-19]]: recap of Render Conference for Tools for Thinking https://www.betaworks.com/event/render-tools-for-thinking - done! ### Notes - [[jerry michalski]] - [[render]] ~ [[tools for thinking]] - [[flancian]] - great introduction - great conversation with [[howard rheingold]] - amazing announcement by [[gordon brander]]: [[noosphere]] - it is [[an agora]], done very well! - [[jerry michalski]] welcomes [[dan whaley]]! - [[dan whaley]] - Fridays are much better meeting wise! - very busy but - [[14 million dollars]] investment from [[ithaka]] and [[jstor]] https://web.hypothes.is/blog/say-hello-to-anno/ - how does this interact with the global [[knowledge commons]]? - [[annotations]] -> the knowledge is in the annotation you take - but the annotation is layered on preexisting on knowledge - it's about protocols and things but also about seeding [[communities]] - [[hypothesis]] cares about the user having access to the underlying knowledge - regardless of whether it's because it's free or they happen to have (exclusive?) access - this knowledge could be resolved in a federated network - clients using open protocols like [[web annotations]] can participate in this network - [[flancian]] how does this relate to [[markets]]? - and the fairness of said markets. - IMHO [[commons]] should [[embed]] markets - [[dan whaley]] the knowledge is what's "out there" right now, we try to pass no judgment and support the existing models - most universities have access to [[json]], but most others don't - the [[nyt]] is not free - > paywalls - some content might always be gated - the world may be moving towards [[free access]] but that will happen on its own terms? - [[hypothesis]] thinks there's a sustainable path for them; charging for institutional usage maybe but making the conversation available to everybody - not doing ads - -> [[reality distortion matrix]] - silos trying to [[monetize attention]] - constructive ways of funding - open [[saas]] - [[mathew lowry]] have you watched [[render]] / [[tools for thinking]] - [[dan whaley]] not yet! - [[mathew lowry]] interesting ai potential exploration - what are your thoughts on integrating AI with hypothesis? - "here is what your friends think about X in the web" vs "here is what an AI thinks about X in the web" - [[dan whaley]] - AI is super interesting as created by humans for humans - a force for good to help us navigate the world more powerfully - but of course there are negative use cases, so we need to set the right incentives - [[flancian]] - may not there be a difference in the long term? :) - in terms of influencing AI - (... saw something in chat :)) - mathew: valuable content layered on top of layered content. - -> sentiment analysis and meta sentiment analysis - people benefiting from the AI they train instead of the current status quo - [[dan whaley]] very privileged to have access to this data, and to steer a new paradigm - find revenues that can sustain this while being pro social is critical - only will explore what will be beneficial - [[jerry michalski]] - [[douglas tomkins]] (sp?) and [[x]] from [[patagonia]] - building land tracts and are trying to turn it into a trust - (!) - is there one ambitious funding project that could be explored for maximum benefit here? - could we fund the [[idea commons]] on some large, ambitious scale? - [[flancian]] using the commons, regulating markets, to disrupt the market for public good - [[dan whaley]] what is the change we want to make? - you could imagine all kinds of things - one idea: how could you incentivize people to make annotations professionally? - meaning high quality "trailblazers" - proposed legislation - pre annotating bills! - what would it take to be able to fund this - concept of [[reddit gold]] - chip in to providing high quality contributions? - fixing the [[newspaper subcription model]] - you put 10 bucks in, it goes to the authors of the things you read - [[jerry michalski]] reinventing [[xanadu]] in a way - [[jerry michalski]] - the large pot of money (a risk in itself, but) can be distributed - [[dan whaley]] it's a flow - like mycellian nutrients - [[flancian]] meta on the metaphor - [[chris aldrich]] [[redwood trees]] network roots to be able to stand up taller - for most trees, they tend to be mirror images - not so redwoods - [[data trust]] - [[chris aldrich]] how to get good quality data in general - [[twitter]] is already a great repository of annotations in a sense, but you have to sift through a lot more stuff to go to the gems - [[jerry michalski]] [[nugget ratio]] is very high if you curate your follows - [[flancian]] -> the [[social network]] is what encodes the most information - the importance of [[open ranking]], [[open filtering]], [[open algorithms]] -> [[open ais]] - [[jerry michalski]] why are [[tools for conversation]] not [[tools for thinking]]? - the lack of good permalinks in interesting answers in random forums - walled gardens - one of the nice things about hypothes.is is that it's got a great signal to noise ratio and you can easily link to full contexts - [[indieweb]] is important here - [[mathew lowry]] [[myhub]] is part of [[indieweb]] - on the following relationship - as leading to flows -> (of attention, of funding) - [[flancian]] hypothes.is integrations with [[feeds]]? it already provides feeds, how important they seem to you - [[dan whaley]] we provide feeds but are not currently looking at providing more - focusing on providing arbitrary annotation for arbitrary web resources - [[chris aldrich]] how do you also not aggregate streams only, but how do you turn those feeds into something feedin a [[garden]] - [[how to feed the garden]] - [[robin sloan]] (...) (sp?) - [[mike oldfield]] [[technopastoral]] - #push [[technopastoral]] - https://myhub.ai/items/the-garden-and-the-stream-a-technopastoral-hapgood - https://hapgood.us/2015/10/17/the-garden-and-the-stream-a-technopastoral/ - how do you pick out "tweets" and curate them into something? - [[flancian]] -> you start by linking them more - [[wikilinks]]` - [[jerry michalski]] - balance the [[stocks]] and [[flows]] - [[mathew]] - https://medium.com/the-mission/why-you-need-a-personal-content-strategy-ff05c84fccfd - [[gardens, not graves]] - http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-future-of-the-internet-is-flow-1443796858 - [[jerry michalski]] the issue with preventing remixes and other limitations on creativity - -> [[everything is a remix]] - [[dan whaley]] whole advertising industry is based and capitalizes on [[flow]] - no ads on [[stocks]] - fresh content mesmerizes us - the fascination of time -> [[flancian]] claiming posts/items from a feed and storing them filed, with a human readable permalink, anchors them; brings them out of the [[flow]], makes them [[evergreen]] - [[mathew lowry]] exploring this in the [[pkg chapter]]: how to build a [[pipeline]] - [[flancian]] #do tell [[st]] - transformation is something people could want to pay; new formats for resources - "follow the flow into new stock" -> [[flancian]] the advantage of the hub aspect of an integrated system, efficiency - [[dan whaley]] delighted to have been able to meet! hope to be able to continue to participate. - Congratulations!!! - [[mathew lowry]] annotating on annotations, transforming - [[jerry michalski]] writing linked content, sharing using emergent conventions - a path to help and prototype together - [[networked scribing]] - we're in the early days of cinema, we're still looking for the [[dolly]] - the web is stuck on web 1 metaphors - corporations hve been trying to centralize and define the asthetics and the ethics of the system - [[chris aldrich]] song lines from indiginal (sp?) cultures - they inform who we are today, but we mostly ignore this - a space in this new space to bring us closer to the spoken word and new ways of communicating - the web becoming more visual / photo centric anyway - what about the music, the dance, the art -> [[flancian]] [[bolo bolo]] - [[dan whaley]] agree with this - [[i annotate]] talk on the future of note taking - [[ward cunningham]] was there - folks from [[logseq]] were there - [[dan whaley]] developed [[docdrop]] to annotate youtube videos - [[dan whaley]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GThr77PbJ4w -> https://docdrop.org/video/GThr77PbJ4w/ - [[flancian]] [[agora]] the right spirit, not the right software yet :) - [[ward cunningham]] [[fedwiki]] - [[roam]] et al is very proprietary - the opportunity is fully distributed, they don't seem to get it - [[mathew]] reminds me of the twitter missed opportunity 10 years ago - [[obsidian]] could be nudged in the right direction - "we're trying to start a project" - what if we already started it? see agenda for next time :) - [[jerry michalski]] ~ #jm - registered [[the big fungus]] - [[flancian]] you know what I'm going to propose :) - [[chris aldrich]] [[commonplace books]] - #jm were they only personal or also social objects? - people would keep their own commonplace book and go in the will to someone else - [[the book nobody read]] about [[copernicus]] and [[revolutions]] - [[flancian]] -> [[david deutsch]] - [[student notes]] passing through the ages - [[marginalia]] - [[torah]] annotations - [[scrapbook]] flipped in meaning - [[commonplace books]] - [[jerry michalski]] - [[spider charts]] - [[chris aldrich]] data visualization/rendering services - [[flancian]] in a federated network - [[mathew lowry]] identifying complementary tools ### Agenda - Tools for Thinking Recap https://www.betaworks.com/event/render-tools-for-thinking - https://etherpad.indieweb.org/ToolsForThinking - Jess Martin's notes: https://jessmart.in/articles/render-recap - [[flancian]] - where are you [[feeds]]? - mine is in https://anagora.org/journals which is an aggregation of daily posts by all users, if you tell me about your feeds I could add them there (like everything Agora related, everything is optional always and offered as a token of friendship!) - [[agora protocol]] -> moved to next week - is the heart of the [[Agora]] - it is what you and me define it to be :) - I have bootstrapped it to be markdown plus wikilinks, wikilinks being descriptions of entities in a free knowledge graph as common [[language]] - feedback welcome :) ## 2022-08-11 ### Attending [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Mathew Lowry]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] ### Video today's FoTL call is up, Unlisted: https://youtu.be/fBOfMKtBpss and https://youtu.be/i0Tty7TIaWI ### Notes Jerry's brain for this session: https://bra.in/6p63ZP - [[betaworks]] conference: https://www.betaworks.com/event/render-tools-for-thinking - [[Mathew Lowry]] - WordPress plugin to syndicate news orgs from multiple sites of different languages - Would be useful to give publishers more to cite and a better understanding - A type of shared memory - Hard to get journalists to adopt the tool - A bunch of different organizations sharing the tools for mutral benifit. - From Mattermost - https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/pl/gbonf7z177yquffqz59mu8uino : - The basic idea was to create CMS plug-ins for newsrooms which would allow journalists in different participating newsrooms to access each other's content, both published and otherwise (ie, drafts, notes, etc.), via their CMS. The participating newsrooms essentially become a sort of decentralised press agency. This is particularly interesting in Europe, where every newsroom cannot have a journalist in every country. Hence the system would incorporate machine translation, autocategorisation and autosummary. Obviously, every time newsroom A used newsroom B's content - ie A translated and republished B's article into their own language for their own audience - newsroom B would earn credit. And every time B used A's, they would spend that credit. - This is a very specific use case, with a business model, for decentralised sharing. And the social benefit is real, because it would set up a decentralised alternative to the big press agencies and allow stories which they will never pick up to travel across borders and find new audiences. - ![](https://doc.anagora.org/uploads/upload_93d18a7e1ef02e22c9e6482dd39300c8.jpg) - ![](https://doc.anagora.org/uploads/upload_f52edad0579e3a487bf2d8b201765b49.jpg) - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] - https://restofworld.org/ - Old version of [[Zemanta]] - A blog post "enhanced" by Zemanta https://hacktext.com/2011/02/what-is-a-text-and-how-do-i-hack-it-521/ - https://static.packt-cdn.com/products/9781849511407/graphics/1407_02_15.jpg - Eventually purchased by Outbrain and killed - https://www.distributedmedialab.com/publishers - Potential space for this [[WordCamp for Publishers]] https://twitter.com/wcpublishers/ - Great event, highly recommend! - Aram - There's the https://knightlab.northwestern.edu/projects/ that is really great. - Chris - The NYT has a digital archive team of about 3 - Photos are not fully backed up there - 2 decades of working on the problem and not everything is backed up. - Mathew - The European Commission relies on the Internet Archive for websites they no longer wish to maintain. - Jerry - YouTube has its own storage problems stuff is not well archived. It is remarkable that they even capture what they can. - The future digital anthropoligsts what will they find? - Aram - Archiving should be something anyone can do and have on their own site - Just like [POSSE](https://indieweb.org/POSSE) there should also be link once and archive yourself - These systems should be able to talk to each other and share and replicate their resources - Jerry - How does this survive though? My hard drives don't survive me - Chris - We have this problem with music - we saw how a lot of that music got lost. - Tip of the iceburg - so much history is lost - music notation didn't exist in printed forms until about 11th century - Jerry - In Small Things Forgotten - Gravestones are very useful for history. Also potery. - Tiny differences in gravestones over time are fashion trends that are time indicators. - Aram - I think in terms of preservation we can look at Activity Pub. When you federate with another server it pulls and replicates and distrubutes stuff. It would be great if we could get that done with archives. - Open sourcing is good as well - Mathew - If you link to something you automatically make a backup is a good idea - What does this have to do with content sharing? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content-addressable_storage - http://open-content.net/caw - One peice of content can be shared out replicated and shares an address across many locations. - Smallest Federated Wiki - IPFS but pinning is an issue. - Collective intellegence - what that means for spread and maintenance - Songlines Are the Original Blockchain - https://bra.in/5jQYgm - Jerry - A lot of ways of remembering were intentionally destroyed by colonization - [[Songlines]] are an example of that - but it turns out that these ways of handling it are important. - Local populations carefully crafting things and being overwritten by colonization. - The Biggest Estate on Earth: How the Aborigines Made Australia (2011) - Chris - [[David Christian]] on [[collective intelligence]]: The beginning of collective knowledge and intellegence as the marker for the beginning of human history. - Jerry - Christian talked about how there are not hooks in the work to be able to pull his data out of his finished thesis. - Humans are really good at killing themselves off and then passed down the ways they learned not to. - How practices spread and disceminate? - We overvalue the written world - Jerry. - Mathew - An overvalue of memorization - Greeks overvalued it and that was the end point of oral learning. - What does a non-literary method look like here? - Aram: - [Queens Memory](https://queensmemory.org/) - Podcasts as a method of oral history - Memes and emoji as inconographic languages - Jerry - There are others as well like NPR's project here that do podcasts for oral histories - [[The Alphabet Versus the Goddess: The Conflict Between Word and Image]] (1998) - Aram - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis - Chris - Interesting project to 'write' coreography in a way that isn't the standard way of transmitting coreography - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_notation - Different ways to lay out colors an images to annotate video - how could you have a recorded record that could be used to recreate a movie from the notes. - Graphic facilitators - Mathew - volcano model for desktop information - starts in the center and slowly flows towards the sides until it falls off the desktop. - Aram - Reminds me of 3d desktops - ![](https://doc.anagora.org/uploads/upload_43742f2c6167180e0f75a72217f54e4e.png) - Jerry - [[Songlines]] on the desktop - Grapiphic facilitation at conferences - Point back at stuff that was written on the wall from a previous day. - What would The Brain look like as the file system for an operating system. - synecure - Aram - Archiving as a regular personal practice - Chris - References of people who value their knowledge so they protect against it being lost to history. - These bound books over here with all my notes take them out of the house - Jerry - Tools for thinking - https://app.thebrain.com/brains/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/thoughts/4bfe6526-9884-4b6d-9548-23659da7811e/ - https://scalingsynthesis.com/ - Scaling Synthesis - Multiplayer TFT https://lu.ma/9a21amd7 from 2022-08-09 video should be available shortly from [[Boris Mann]] et al. - Should we write a database of these things or should we poll people and publish interviews? What tools do people recommend? - Good example: https://indieweb.org/commonplace_book - Would be good to hear from people: - I have this practice - this is how I use it - this is what it looks like - and this is how I turn it into outputs? - Looking at how people use their information graphs and how they visualize information - It would be really valuable to me to know if I want a good graph this is what it looks like - Why isn't there more documentation of these tools and how could it lead to interoperability - Chris - Even the history of the tree space isn't as well known or broadly distributed.... - Lima, Manuel. [[The Book of Trees]]: Visualizing Branches of Knowledge, 2014. - https://papress.com/products/the-book-of-trees-visualizing-branches-of-knowledge - Jerry: in my brain - https://app.thebrain.com/brains/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/thoughts/cff5e4d0-94af-70a0-d710-d324cbdd55e6/ - Jerry - Could we have a [[pattern language]] for this? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language - Ex: Light from Two Walls can become a shorthand for talking about loose rules that trigger understand and contextualization. - Ex: [[1 2 4 all]] - [Jerry write up of instrumenting](https://wiki.rel8.dev/tile_-_1-2-4-all_zoom_app) - Mathew - Is there a syntax or thesouras for pattern languages - Jerry - Patern Languages of Pattern Languages - https://www.hillside.net/plop/2022/ - Chatbots maybe a solution? - Hey I'm intersted in Starting with Tools for Thinking - Aram - Maybe just a question and answer page? - Jerry - And then you could feed it into a Chat Bot - Mathew - How do we help people find the right tool for them - How do we help people find the right pattern langugage for them. - Aram - It seem swe have to interview people first and get them to talk us through it. - Do we need a questionaire? - Jerry - a smorgasbord of thinking tool users' preferences - There is some skill required to pull people out of their over-complexity. - [ ] questionnaire for thinking tool users? - What are you using this tool for and why? - What did you wish your tool suite did? - In the note taking space a lot of people don't think out the longg term value - Creating one or two notes a day over a year before the big affordances become obvious - what is the long term value of your tool suite and process? - create a 3 minute video of your most typical use case - UX Studies Practice here ? - Narrate yourself through the proceess and what you are thinking - Chris - Very few people get to the 3 or 4 month mark where they see pay off from notetaking. - Not many people are writing about it as a benefit either. - Mathew - We need to use the 5 why technique - we need to ask why a lot - Not everyone wants to use notes for creation, some are just collectors. - Chris - Some people have collect a lot of stuff as the only goal and then the assumption is that [[note taking magic]] happens, but that isn't really the case. - People find a system and then want to sell it and that can be a problem - [[GTD]] aka [[getting things done]] is an example here - [[nick milo]] and [[linking your thinking]] https://www.linkingyourthinking.com/ - [[Memory]] and [[major system]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system as a historical example of people selling intellectual systems or frameworks. This is playing itself out again with note taking tools. - https://boffosocko.com/2022/06/10/reframing-and-simplifying-the-idea-of-how-to-keep-a-zettelkasten/ - Critiques of Learning Styles https://bra.in/2q5oKV - [[design from trust]] designfromtrust.com - Universal Benefit ## 2022-08-04 ### Agenda - Shared memory / collective learning - [[collective knowledge]] [[shared knowledge]] - how the agora has an advantage over platforms (Flancian) - [[wikilinks everywhere]] <-> [[hashtags everywhere]] - [[adversarial interoperability]] - -> AI(flancian): post about this in [[ogm]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] do the simplest thing that can possibly work sounds good - AI(flancian): let's invite [[dan whaley]] here again? - [[meta]] how to have a more structured agenda ### Attending [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Mathew Lowry]] [[flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] ### Notes - [[Jerry Michalski]] - [[betaworks]] render event next week about [[tools for thought]] [[2022-08-16]] - [[nyc]] - https://render.betaworks.com/thinkcamp-a-betaworks-accelerator-program-for-tools-for-thinking-de7e18bf5682 - how to get a [[posse]] working together - [[chorus of voices]] - [[internet slowness]] - [[van jacobson]] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Jacobson_TCP/IP_Header_Compression - on [[conventions]] - [[lower caps]] vs [[initial caps]] - eventual fixup - eventual convergence :) - inclusivity aspect of it: be liberal w.r.t. what you take - [[Mathew Lowry]] myhub does the same, lowercase by default everywhere. Based on my (poor) experience with Roam. - arguments for/against - [[lower caps]] - [[initial caps]] - more readable - the cost of writing caps is helped by tools like [[obsidian]] auto completing links once you type \[\[ - [[Chris Aldrich]] about unicode coalescing (there's a better word for this) in both directions, pros and cons - (...) - very used to writing in caps anyway - ex: platforms like instagram show how people "exploit" hashtags by using many similar ones to have greater reach - a platform could actually coalesce hashtags - [[triangle thinking]] ~ [[combinatorial creativity]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] operationalizing communal note taking in preparation for [[betaworks]] - how do you do note taking? - [[Chris Aldrich]] almost on git but not currently - most of the public stuff starts in [[hypothes.is]] - notes in hypothes.is have permalinks - actually have two URLs: - one for the page/resource you annotated followed by a trigger for hypothes.is to open and show the annotation in context - one in the hypothes.is domain which refers to the actual annotation proper - "[[js;dr]] problem" - [[Jerry Michalski]] - you can share a highlight to a passage using the current #... convention - https://indieweb.org/media_fragment (thanks!) - https://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/ - hypothes.is reads the tags and uses it for presenting annotations/highlights - https://www.w3.org/annotation/ - https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-vocab/ - Research on various annotation implementations created by Hypothes.is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f86L7vgHUW9wSLNNSunhjmtxtg6KlCOVpHGKbqUzW-Y/edit#gid=0 - [[jerry michalski]] on - #push [[how people think]] - https://www.collaborativefund.com/blog/think/ - how could we bridge these numbered 1 .. 17 aspects with: - notes about the same in other note taking systems - hypothes.is annotations on those sections - [[mathew lowry]] which level of granularity do you use for your notes? resource/concept/etc. - how to map one to the other? - [[jerry michalski]] call this the [[nugget problem]] - [[chris aldrich]] [[nugget size]] vs [[zoom levels]] - [[jerry michalski]] - [[ted nelson]] - [[stretch text]] ~ [[StretchText]] (1967) - [[hypertext fiction]] - AI(flancian): tell [[armengol]] about this, he was working on something related. - Q: is there typing in [[thebrain]] or some other way to distinguish nuggets from e.g. full resources? - it could encode this but the way Jerry uses it loses this information - Jerry does not use some features just because they slow him down / they take a lot of time - [[Mark Trexler]] uses more of these features and is a [[climate change]] expert. - [[chris aldrich]] the labels/wikilinks that you used for these are unlikely to be the same other people use. - (but once these are known to all be in a particular resource...) - [[google search]] including fragment lookup in search results in some sites - engineering focused solution - (on striping tracking data from URLs) - [[building blocks]] - if it's online, there'a permalink to it somewhere; that's a starting point - [[media fragments]] to dig into text, video, audio - [[rel8 pioneers]] - where to [[meet]] in this notion of [[idea sex]]? - [[schelling point]] - where would we go in the internet if we couldn't pass information about the place? - which places, which formats? - [[chris aldrich]] [[permalinks]] and [[wikilinks everywhere]] - negotiating equivalence between wikilinks in different repositories - -> [[agora]] - [[peter hagen]] - #push [[lindy annotations]] - https://annotations.lindylearn.io/new/ - #push [[crowdwise]] - https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/crowdwise/hogoebkpcnajkkjdidfhojkljppfalip - personal [[agoras]] - providing entity resolution, entity coalescing, annotations - a context in which to resolve wikilinks to permalinks - [[optimistic linking]] - wishful thinking with dangling links - [[mathew lowry]] - fedwiki for working on convergent links/pages - [[chris aldrich]] creating [[red links]] (in wiki terms), it would be nice to be able to get resolution paths whenever one is clicked (resolve this in X, Y or Z) - [[jerry michalski]] the autocomplete in obsidian could be extended to resolve in expanding circles - #push [[patterns]] - #127 [[intimacy gradient]] - [[mathew lowry]] "a tool that lets me curate my content according to my social network" would be super powerful - [[chris aldrich]] [[google plus circles]] - how to incentivize a company into a non profit motive, or a low profit motive, so they can be trusted - [[bonfire]] https://bonfirenetworks.org/ - #push [[agora]] - is about [[resolving]] with [[trust]] - [[ai]] ~ [[artificial intelligence]] - communities building corpora - [[mathew lowry]] and setting up a [[dao]] to steer resulting models - or [[disco]] - [[jerry michalski]] - tweets if they were connected more tightly with the internet - they could embed anchor data / use a mechanism like hypothes.is - [[chris aldrich]] https://twitter.com/search?q=filter%3Afollows%20-filter%3Areplies&src=typed_query&f=live - AI(flancian): add it to the Agora as one of the search "providers" :) - [[mellow twitter]] https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=filter%3Afollows%20-filter%3Aretweets%20-filter%3Areplies%20-filter%3Alinks&src=typd - next actions for [[betaworks]] conference - -> [[fotl mattermost chat]] - [[mathew lowry]] which visual language do you envision here? - [[jerry michalski]] - in this private language: - [[caret]] ~ [[>]] means incorporate into brain - cloud means private - but there's many views that make sense for different context, different people - the all singing, all dancing platform lets you choose your own view based on what you need and shift between them - how to solve this? - [[flancian]] assume it will work and then make it work :) - gather resources of many different types/mental models, all about the same entity/event/thing - then try to make them coalesce and translate between each other - [[chris aldrich]] solving the general problem is hard, start with subproblems - (someone who solved a related problem) - [[jerry michalski]] [[unix model]] - composability - separate data from (apps?) - [[john borthwick]] - [[commons culture]] / [[startup culture]] - [[civilizational commons]] - [[chris aldrich]] it would help to offer a wiki and tools for thought introduction/historical context - -> [[rel8 tiles]] ~ https://wiki.rel8.dev/tiles - (built on [[massive wiki]] which is git based) -> https://github.com/OpenGlobalMind/rel8-wiki - "in a breakfast of ham and eggs, the chicken is [[involved]], the pig is [[committed]]." - building lightweight [[bridges]] between tools. ## 2022-07-28 ### Attending [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[David Weinberger]] [[Mathew Lowry]] ### Video https://youtu.be/aLZ9a70lw2g ### Notes Jerry's brainf for this meeting: https://bra.in/7j3ewE - [[Anagora]] shared notes - #push [[Commonplace books]] - Passed down - Example: [[Erasmus Darwin]]'s was left to his family. [[Charles Darwin]] used it and passed it down; it's now in a library - Easier to do now on the web while active, harder to preserve - https://indieweb.org/longevity - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] - Context.center - [Timelines at work](https://fightwithtools.dev/projects/context-timelines/) - I find timelines to be really useful on understanding and progressing things and finding pattersn and understanding causes. - Logging git work and developing in public to make reference easier. - [[Paul Frazee]] - works on [[Beaker]] and other [[Hyper]] projects. - Really cool logging of code work linked with live streaming - https://paulfrazee.medium.com/building-in-the-open-70ac9dccf1aa - fightwithtools.dev - stream of thought developer notes linked to git commits (still in progress). Trying to make my work more approachable. - [[Mathew Lowry]]: What about [[Spaced Repetition]] - [[mnemonic medium]] - [[Jerry Michalski]]: https://app.thebrain.com/brains/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/thoughts/6900f8c3-d117-94dc-4996-39241bd989e0/ - Chris Aldrich: [Piotr Woźniak](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_Wo%C5%BAniak_(researcher)) - [[mnemonic reading]] - [[Anki]] https://apps.ankiweb.net/ - Duolingo - A useful version of this is active notetaking while reading articles - perhaps combined - Refrence to Genius and other web highlighting/note-taking layers that exist - [[Soren Bjornstad]] formerly of Anki and now at Remnote has lots of work on spaced repetition https://www.sorenbjornstad.com/writing/ - [[David Weinberger]] [[automated summarization]] could play a role here? - [[Mathew Lowry]]: Something I want to add to MyHub - Imagine you are creating another piece of content in the same zone - remember you asked this question to yourself 5 months ago? - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]: Recently worked on a timeline learning tool - where you get a package of articles in a timeline and it tracks your reading of each article. I wonder if it works with the automated summization content to create learning cards? - [[Mathew Lowery]]: It might be interesting to see about giving people different orders of articles than just date saved, that they store so they can build narratives out of those cards. - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]: You can pull date from metadata btw. Also: Narrative creation by ordering cards is really interesting. One example of this is Will Wright's tool for Current TV - https://hacktext.com/2011/02/crowd-sourced-television-goes-to-the-next-level-with-bar-karma-and-storymaker-477/ - [[Jerry Michalski]]: Founder of https://redforester.com/ is working on something similar that takes elements and can organize them in different ways. I recommended animation to different forks. - [[Chris Aldrich]]: Taking notes then reviewing them - asking yourself a question that forces you to produce an answer is a far better method of review that simply re-reading material. Example: [[Cornell Notes]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_Notes - [[Jerry Michalski]]: Five Rs of Note Taking: - Recite - Record - Reduce - Reflect - Review - [[Mathew Lowery]]: Do you have a set of pre-generated questions that you can slot specific things into or is it more freeform? (To Chris) - [[Chris Aldrich]]: [[Cloze]] process where, when you are writing it/taking up the notes you use brackets that mean you are already writing the card. - Have to make sure the questions are not too open ended. - Usually one or two sentences with only a few things missing. - I use it very sparingly because I have other methods I prefer to [[Spaced Repetition]] - Actively linking notes also helps a great deal. - book: Memory Craft: Improve Your Memory with the Most Powerful Methods in History (2019) by [[Lynne Kelly]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] AR projects seem to lack informational, helper, curational stuff. - Useful concept memory palaces: loci - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci - [[David Weinberger]] - background in philosophy - for past 30 years writing about the ways in which technology effects the ways we think about things. Focused on Machine Learning for the past 5 years. - Working at Google on Ethics and AI - [[David Weinberger]] - Writing Notes Process - Hobbyist programmer - Wrote app that lets me take notes in plain old [[ascii]] (text) - bibliographic info at top - page number, note and tag - took notes on a ton of info that way - then built an app that let me shunt it all into databases - Went back to Zotero yesterday - Couldn't get it to work and it doesn't work the way I want it to. - [yes](https:yes.com) - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] - I liked [[Endnote]] when someone else was paying for it. - [[Zotero]] is great, not for me really because I'm no longer an academic, but lots of great ways to plug in to it to make it for me. - For arguing on the web, that's what I use context.center for. - [[Chris Aldrich]]: - Mendeley seems to be shutting down - Zotero is useful for annotating PDFs and now does export of notes from .pdfs as of version 6.0 - [[Jerry Michalski]] big charts and zooming in and out of them is one of the problems we need to take on. - [[Mathew Lowry]] - [[Harvard Growth Lab]] has an amazing infographic about economics - https://growthlab.cid.harvard.edu/ - Reminds me of - https://github.com/Quartz/Chartbuilder - [[Cesar Hidalgo]] - https://centerforcollectivelearning.org/ - What do we take on next? Agenda for next week: - How to explain the shared memory concept? - A lot of different answers. - Maybe understanding what the technical format is for a "memory" so it can be shared effectively. - Where are the YouTube listings of our calls? - In Jerry's brain - In the Mattermost chat ### Action items / #TODO - [ ] invite others - who? - if we write it down in a canonical place we can distribute this (useful, social) work - [ ] set up cross-review? - [[flancian]] would be willing and glad to review other people's writing, perhaps we could do this as a group? - full disclosure: I'm also writing a chapter :) - Always glad to read and make suggestions! - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] - What else might we publish? Potentially on the site - [ ] [[let's share notes]] - [ ] start integrating pattern languages - [ ] build a [[meta pattern language]] 11:31 Aram Zucker-Scharff:[Trophy](https://rrchnm.org/portfolio-item/tropy/) ## 2022-07-21 ### Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[flancian]] (who says: thank you so much for taking notes last time!!!) [[Mathew Lowry]] ### Video July 21, in 2 parts: - https://youtu.be/P6Ge5-DAXF0 and - https://youtu.be/oaWi86wUHLE ### Notes Jerry's Notes on this session: https://bra.in/8vm4JJ - The book Mathew is working on: https://personalknowledgegraphs.com/#/page/Personal%20Knowledge%20Graphs - working with [[wireframes]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] - [[punch cards]] - [[beatrice webb]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Webb - [[niklas luhmann]] was born the year after she published - [[conrad gessner]] - [[flancian]] likely the namesake for [[gessnerallee]], and I didn't know him! - [[ramon llull]] - the [[catalan]] - [[herman hollerith]] - [[roland barthes]] (look into previous week's notes) - [[aristotle]] - influenced the [[great chain of being]] - [[sky woman]] vs [[adam and eve]] - [[doughnut economics]] - [[flancian]] [[ontoshift]] in [[free, fair and alive]] - [[aram zucker-scharff]] reported on economics back in the day - "[[economics]] is more [[sociology]] than it is [[mathematics]]" - [[Chris Aldrich]] there's interesting work in [[complexity economics]] that goes beyond [[clockwork models]] - [[santa fe institute]] - [[cognitive artifacts]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] is an [[economics undergrad]] - taking [[pattern languages]] and [[extending]] them and [[integrating]] them - [[open source pattern language]] of [[re(generative) commons]] - how to share notes with each other, into myhub, agora and other platforms? - https://anagora.org/node/ontoshift - Formats and protocols to exchange and connect knowledge - [[flancian]] thinks of Anagora as a reference implementation of [[agora protocol]], which is this protocol - What are the standard objects that move back and forth on this protocol? What is the shapes and how can they enable information exchange and connection? - Does this connect with ActivityPub? Could we send objects and federate "brains" in this way? - A schema for everything(?) https://schema.org/ - [[Jerry Michalski]] - #push [[rel8]] - https://wiki.rel8.dev/rel8_pioneers - [[Mathew Lowry]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] asked for examples of model [[zettelkasten]] outputs - hasn't gotten many :) - #push [[zettelkasten]] - [[model examples of zettelkasten output processes]] https://boffosocko.com/2022/07/12/call-for-model-examples-of-zettelkasten-output-processes/ - conceptualization: we can all take small notes, interlink them ([[Jerry Michalski]] calls them [[nuggets]]) - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[nuggets, narratives and points of view]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmId2x6JSQE&feature=related - how can I pull up 2, 3 nodes that bring up a certain number of text blocks that can then be assembled into long form text or some other format that is fit for consumption by others? - linear version is one output format, likely the most useful one - interactive experience as an alternative? - closest UI that exists might be [[devonthink]] - [[Mathew Lowry]] akin to what script writers assemble - [[aram]] that is called [[murder board]] / [[scrub down]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[anacapa]] charts / [[anacapa charts]] - #push [[zettelkasten]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] question about [[zettelkasten]] - why would the numbering system be useful nowadays? - unclear - is the fandom in a [[blind alley]] because of the focus on form? - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[zettelkasten origin myth]] - [[aram zucker-scharff]] confusion of technique with presentation layer - [[trello]] is inspired by [[getting things done]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] the ability to reuse what you've already written is key to every productive academic; the means of doing this is critical to productivity - [[luhmann]] kept changing, improving his technique - going back to the [[flatten]] problem (going from n notes to a long form text) - [[flancian]] two possible approaches - define a [[dsl]] for flattening/assembling (transclusion helps; pull, push in the Agora goes in this direction) - train and use large language models with notes being part of prompts - [[dimensionality problem]] - [[planarity]] as first target when processing a high dimensional graph - then [[linearity]] closer to text? - [[Jerry Michalski]] the [[zoom problem]]: information does not make sense at all distances - [[the brain]] always seems to work for [[jerry]] in this sense - adding [[clusters]] to link existing nodes is critical for keeping it manageable - [[yellow]] means cluster - [[types]] - [[purple]] means opinion - [[enumerated wisdom]] - [[cialdini's six principles]] ## 2022-07-14 ### Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Marshall Kirkpatrick]] [[Timur Ismaligov]] ### Video https://youtu.be/OlIxzH23ee0 ### Notes Jerry's Brain for this session: https://bra.in/5p7LJJ Flancian had family conflict and couldn't attend [[Marshall Kirkpatrick]] - First attendance here, though only for a portion of the call - working on a climate justice news aggregator General discussions about archives and miscellaneous topics Jerry and Chris stayed late to talk about note taking related topics. [Flow Immersive Tricast](https://flowimmersive.com/tricast) is the app that Jerry uses to put his face into a small highlight while he shares his screen ### Chat log Jerry Michalski: our real chat is over here: [https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/ogm-fellowship-of-the-link](https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/ogm-fellowship-of-the-link) 11:13 Aram Zucker-Scharff: Here's the link to that - [W3C group on sustainability](https://www.w3.org/community/sustainability/) 11:20 Jerry Michalski:[https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryankspangler/](https://www.linkedin.com/in/yankspangler/) ? ## 2021-07-07 ### Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[flancian]] [[aram zucker-scharff]] [[Mathew Lowry]] [[bouncepaw]] ### Video In 2 pieces. here's segment one https://youtu.be/41bA7oHG__c and two https://youtu.be/n1hS6sADgaw with my Brain notes here: https://bra.in/8px4ZK ### Notes - Where to track a recurring agenda/our goals? - [[Jerry Michalski]] https://wiki.rel8.dev - [[Chris Aldrich]] something that has worked for indieweb is having people who join show a token of interest; e.g. try to improve something for someone - i.e. we can talk all day, but improvements to real systems are what we should be shooting towards - we could focus here on integrating systems that already exist (the ones we're building or fostering individually) as a group - [[flancian]] let's try to spot patterns (...) - [[aram zucker-scharff]] - works for the [[The Washington Post]] - developed [[pressforward]], a tool for [[wordpress]]- http://pressforward.org/ - building easy to use websites, archives -- in a way that allows them to interact with each other - https://context.center/ - https://github.com/AramZS/contexter - https://fightwithtools.dev/projects/context-pages/ - [Aram on the Fediverse](https://indieweb.social/@Chronotope) - interested in solving [[misinformation]] and [[archival]] - for note taking, [[markdown]] on [[git]] - [[flancian]] https://anagora.org - [[fellowship of the link]], a crowdsourced introduction :) - [[zettelkasten]], [[commonplace books]], [[tools for thought]], [[personal knowledge graphs]], [[interlays]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] lots of projects in this space are trying to sell something; but we care most about the [[commons]] - how do we take idea capturing and generating and link them into a healthy [[knowledge commons]]? - [[logseq]] model as it relates to the commons - taking VC money seems slightly worrying as they'll want to be repayed - https://boffosocko.com/2022/07/05/economic-models-in-social-media-and-a-better-way-forward/ - [[logseq]] looks close to [[obsidian]] - do we have enough variety of approaches? - paying for services is fine - [[you need a wiki]] - [[agenda]] - #push [[rel8]] - https://wiki.rel8.dev - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[rel8 pioneers]] - [[flancian]] let's all push our projects onto a shared space and talk by default about interlinking and integrating them? - [[Chris Aldrich]] let's start a list of resources and repositories? - this may help to bootstrap a [[commons]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[mycelium]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] - [[liberating voices pattern language]] - [[1 2 4 all]] ~ [[one two four all]] - [[bouncepaw]] - [[mycorrhiza]] - [[hypha]] - [[flancian]] let's build an [[agora]]? :) - this seems to be what we're trying to achieve this, regardless of the name? - let's bring to the next meeting -- a list of: - [[repositories]] - [[tools]] - [[projects]] - (that we want to integrate/cross reference/discuss) - [[affordances]] - [[wikilinks]] and [[metadata]] as key to the [[commons]] - [[meta]] about chat - let's prefer the [[mattermost]] to [[jitsi chat]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] what's the difference between [[indieweb]] vs [[fediverse]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[fediverse]] is a subset of [[indieweb]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[indieweb]] is based around the notion of having your own website and building your identity around it - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[fediverse]] is based around the notion of your identity being hosted in an instance like [[mastodon.social]] - Let's discuss what we wrote to [[rel8]], our lists of: - [[repositories]] - [[tools]] - [[projects]] - (that we want to integrate/cross reference/discuss) - People who need access to the repo (github usernames): - flancian - aramzs - bouncepaw - chrisaldrich - mathewlowry - Let's talk about [[search engines]] - https://warmedal.se/~bjorn/posts/2022-07-02-projviding-meaningful-search-results-without-own-index.html - [[queries as addresses]] - Phone service vs Internet service analogy: https://boffosocko.com/2022/07/05/economic-models-in-social-media-and-a-better-way-forward/ - Let's onboard everybody to the [[fediverse]]! - [[mastodon]] app is actually good to bootstrap/choose an instance - Dump your ActivityPub IDs here ;) - @flancian@social.coop - @chrisaldrich@boffosocko.com - @bouncepaw@lor.sh - What do we see as our long term goal? - [[flancian]] let's integrate repositories and tools and write [[science fiction]] together :) how could our tools, platforms, the internet, the world at large look like by [[2025]], [[2030]]? - [[Mathew Lowry]] is focusing on producing the [[pkg book]] chapter and would love to do research and writing in this space - [[Jerry Michalski]] would like to participate in exploration and prototyping; illustrate and broadcast interesting ideas for others to pick up; analyze what it will take to deliver this by the next decade; organize activities - [[Chris Aldrich]] appreciate the idea of [[shared wikis]] that can communicate back and forth with each other - [[flancian]] we should invite [[ward cunningham]]! - [[Chris Aldrich]] history of the medium - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[songlines: the power and promise]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[third archive]] ## 2022-06-30 ### Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[diego de la hera]] [[flancian]] ### Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8pkNRRncTc ### Notes - [[Jerry Michalski]] - #push [[rel8]] - #go https://www.rel8.dev - (a [[google site]]) - https://www.rel8.dev/wiki is embedded above - "relating ideas, documents, perspectives and people" - (Jerry is using [[obsidian]] plus [[obsidian sync]] for this) - [[short term]], [[medium term]] and [[long term]] goals for [[rel8]] - [[short term]] - define: how do we share notes? - import [[jerry's brain]] from [[json]] into [[obsidian]] and [[excalidraw]] - [[Zsolt Viczián]] (https://www.zsolt.blog/) is interested in doing this - what do we put on [[rel8]]? - a list of formats/processes that are sufficient for us to 'store our brain' comfortably? - [[Mathew Lowry]] user requirements exercise - [[flancian]] on a hub architecture for integrating brains and negotiating exchange (format conversion) - [[underlay]], [[interlay]], [[overlay]] as per [[metasj]] - [[Mathew Lowry]] decentralized or centralized? - decentralized is the idea (or distributed) - [[Mathew Lowry]] what should we be using as way of standards to create this? - [[Chris Aldrich]] text -> markdown -> html - (shared by default is convenient but can be problematic) - text as the basic standard - then add links, e.g. markdown or org mode - then html, microformats, json, yaml can be layered on top - exchanged p2p (distributed) or via hubs - [[Mathew Lowry]] interested on web mentions, fediverse as they exist in the data exchange ecosystem - [[Chris Aldrich]] how can you design a minimum building block that is interoperable with other pieces? - [[web mentions]] takes the older ideas of pingback/trackback, strips them down to the essentials. it's a notification system via [[post]] requests. - [[mastodon]] could support web mentions (there was talk about this a few years back) - if X writes a post about URL A by Y, Y will be pinged - Y receives the notification, can do some spot checks (does the call refer to a post that actually has the expected link), and then does whatever it wants with it - [[activitypub]] could take advantage of [[webmentions]] as a building block, but it mostly doesn't - [[kevin marks]] (sp?) added microformats to [[mastodon]] - [[flancian]] decentralized vs distributed approach, web3 and all - [[Jerry Michalski]] technical details vs ease of use - [[flancian]] two directions we could go in: - text as the standard makes it easy to use actually as users can write text wherever they want, a priori - focusing on making existing tools and ecosystems easier to use/onboard to - [[Chris Aldrich]] - high tech skills: you set up your own mastodon instance, agora, etc. - medium: you produce information, content but someone else pays the [[admin tax]] (you contribute to an instance) - (spectrum) - no technical expertise - #push [[blot im]] is very useful, imports from whenever you want - [[flancian]] nice, and it's open source: https://github.com/davidmerfield/blot - wanted to do this for the Agora so this is super helpful - [[Mathew Lowry]] - who are we building this for? - "instagram user" might be too wide a net? - disconnect from building a knowledge graph and writing for others - [[Jerry Michalski]] - #push [[nuggets, remedies and pov]] - [[nuggetization]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmId2x6JSQE&feature=related - [[public]] vs [[private]] as a default - [[public]] as default seems better to seemingly most of us - [[Chris Aldrich]] mostly these days notes start in [[hypothes.is]] - periodically gets feedback about how cool it is to work in public - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[fedwiki]] - [[twitter]] user 509 here (!) - [[diego de la hera]] - going back to what we have in mind and where our ideas overlap - not really sure what he's expecting here, but a tool that would be interesting would be like this: - like the agora, where you could see it from two different perspectives - as a personal tool, where an individual user decides which graphs converge on the agora - "mix and match" feeds and gardens, an aggregator - like an [[agora view]] - another agora is closer to anagora.org, where you push many graphs to a place but where the owners of the repos decided that in advance - an extension or tool could be written so that the nodes you see could be actual URLs, and incoming/outgoing links would be those around your internet context (social graph, feeds) - [[Jerry Michalski]] - [[apple's]] [[knowledge navigator]] video back in 1986 - [[adversarial interoperability]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] For the [[adversarial interoperability]] fans: https://granary.io/ - [[Mathew Lowry]] [[mysilio]] - [[myhub]] - writing aids to get from notes to defined outputs - [[having a somewhere]] - [[knowledge contexts]] as a service - [[Chris Aldrich]] - [[writing toolkit]] - #push [[social reader]] tracks, breaks down and integrates feeds - #go https://indieweb.org/social_reader - https://indieweb.org/Microsub - [[micro.blog]] is great - [[refbacks]] - https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z2QvtE9w5zs49x7WUeG8Ut1vywHDLiG2Wkm9p pinged his site - [[Jerry Michalski]] - [[intimacy gradient]] is a pattern in [[a pattern language]] - [[the view master]] - how do we generalize and integrate the superpowers that each tool gives? - [[diego de la hera]] - would like to highlight the link aspect of how information pieces relate to each other - which links are mentioned in that tweet, that post? - about the [[great fungus]] - still thinking of this as an individual app customized by the user - [[personalized fungus]]? [[fungus view]] - [[minimum viable formats]] - text - diagrams - [[goals]] - define our [[wheres]] (from [[having a somewhere]]) - [[the big fungus]] - [[agora]] - define minimum viable formats for storing our brains - older notes in [[fotl]] ## Chat from [[2022-11-02]] Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:This brand? https://www.amazon.com/CZUR-Shine-Ultra-Auto-Flatten-Compatible/dp/B08NSJQ65L 20:08 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says:this is the new one, and it's still 50% off on indiegogo: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fancy-pro-ultra-webcam-pro-book-scanner-in-1 20:10 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09FX5SRQT/ is the one I got 20:10 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:Were you the one who inspired David Graeber's thesis on Bullshit Jobs? 🤣 20:16 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:ha! Jerry Michalski says:Pete perfectly explained what happened. the FoTL call for next week starts at 11am, as it should. 20:19 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says: https://dainty-sable-264aa3.netlify.app/project/measuring_thinking_tools.html 20:21 me says:saved in [[thinking tools map]] 20:23 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says:Card Sorting Dimensions in Airtable https://calendar.google.com/calendar/event?action=TEMPLATE&tmeid=NW8zbXUzOXAxMWZxNjlydGFwcWV0YnNnZWQgcGV0ZXIua2FtaW5za2lAbQ&tmsrc=peter.kaminski%40gmail.com 20:23 me says:(taking some notes in https://doc.anagora.org/fellowship-of-the-link?edit ) 20:24 Peter Kaminski Peter Kaminski says:"progressive standards" 20:25 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:+1 to interoperability! 20:26 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:is self-dogfooding redundant? doesn't dogfooding mean using it oneself? Jerry Michalski says:is Mathew feeling better now? Jerry Michalski says:low-effort gestures generate a lot of small motion, though Jerry Michalski says:mastodon lesson 1: don't be on the main instance 20:33 me says:which one? 😃 20:34 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: collectiva.social doesn't resolve Jerry Michalski says:nor http://collective.social/ 20:35 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:| **Axis** | **Definition** | **To score highly** | | --- | --- | --- | | Openness | How well does it play with other tools? How interoperable and customisable is it? | F/OSS. Use open standards. Has an API. Import/Export Allow 3rd party plugins. Available on all OSs, platforms. Supports structured data | | Note-making | How good is it as a note-making tool? | Good outliner (easy indent/outdent, reorder, fold/zoom...) Atomic note structure, block references. Zettlekasten support. | | Writing/Publishing | How good is it as a writing & publishing tool? | WYSIWYG, zen writing environment/design, editing feature set, seamless publishing system to Web, Social. | | Idea discovery | Does it help users organise and (re)discover relevant notes? | Backlinks, Good search, AI-driven content discovery | | User-friendliness | How easy is it to start benefiting from it, off the shelf? | New user can get started and get benefits without taking courses, reading 3 books and 23 blog posts, or installing a dozen plugins | | Power | How powerful, adaptable & configurable is it? | Lots of features, highly customisable, many plug-ins, queryable knowledge, etc. | | Multiplayer | Allows teamwork | Group-based collaboration: groups, permissions, workflows, version control, commenting, moderation... | | Help | Is it easy to find high-quality documentation and answers to common questions? | Well-organised onboarding, documentation & FAQ system. | | Community | Is there a supportive community around the tool | Helpful community, active 3rd party developers, etc. | | Cost | How expensive is the tool | Free, or at least a v. useful free version in a freemium model | | Data sovereignty | Who owns your data? | Your files on your PC. | 20:35 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:BlueSky protocol 20:35 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:oops wrong paste Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://kolektiva.social/about 20:36 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/10-18-2022-the-at-protocol 20:37 me says: ctzn.one -- now down probably 20:37 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Paul Frazee? 20:38 me says:yes: http://anagora.org/pfrazee 20:39 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://paulfrazee.medium.com/back-to-basics-what-is-the-point-of-decentralization-a495123a1fd7 Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://context.center/topics/cryptocurrency/#activity-pub 20:41 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:small note: I'm Twitter user # 509 Jerry Michalski says:when it was just an SMS service 😃 20:43 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:😃 20:43 me says:Pleroma me says:Lemmy me says:Misskey? 20:44 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://github.com/misskey-dev/misskey Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://twitter.com/Chronotope/status/1587511147137486848 20:45 me says:some interesting questions in this space: me says:1. what is the biggest overall activitypub instance? me says:2. what is the biggest which isn't mastodon based? 20:46 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:I think mastodon.social is the largest instance 20:46 me says:3. how large could a non-mastodon instance feasibly scale up to be currently? 20:46 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:advertising is the colonizing force of capitalism in internet spaces 20:47 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:Like cohost.org is sort of pushing in that direction as well Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://pinboard.in/ also sort of monetizes that way 20:48 me says: https://social.coop 20:48 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:guilds --> unions Jerry Michalski says:mutual aid --> cooperatives 20:50 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4467218-travelling-brothers?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=wM2PoCC5zD&rank=12 ? 20:51 me says:anti disintermediation me says:crypto is a convoluted way to define a trust root (in most applications, it seems) me says:"what are the platforms and protocols that we will take for granted 100 years from now" me says:counter anti disintermediation 😉 me says:citation needed 😉 20:54 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:full title: Travelling Brothers: The Six Centuries' Road from Craft Fellowship to Trade Unionism (1979) Jerry Michalski says:A Collective Bargain: Unions, Organizing, and the Fight for Democracy (2020) ? 20:55 me says: flancia.org/mine/flanbook is a bit about this -- coopting the machinery of capitalism for the purpose of advancing the revolution 20:56 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:oooo! 20:56 me says:commons me says:enclosure of the commons == another manifestation of capitalist colonization 20:57 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:my notes from this call: https://bra.in/3pWnJo 20:58 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:Ah i was thinking of Fight Like Hell by Kim Kelly Aram Zucker-Scharff says:I'll read that! :walking: ## 2022-06-24 ### Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[flancian]] ### Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9aRBtTqLjw ### Notes - Discussion of [[go links]] - Demo in anagora.org :) - [[go/fotl/chat]] and [[go/fellowship of the link/chat]] both now work - Time? - 11am Pacific on Fridays? - Could conflict with date nights in Europe :) - [[11am Pacific on Thursdays]]? - Let's try this! - [[shared resources]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] putting up something in the site - add a go link :) - here's what we're doing, here's where we're going, here is how to join - let's use [[chat]] for coordinating - what's a high leverage topic for the three of us? - [[Chris Aldrich]] what's pareto optimal/the 20% we could tackle first? - [[Jerry Michalski]] has been working on a [[shared vision]] - [[flancian]] [[2025]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] - how to build a "webring" for meetings, documents about projects - [[obsidian]] with [[excalidraw]] done by a friend - diagrams.net is also good - [[open global mind]] ~ [[ogm]] - [[flotilla]] -> [[federation]] - what do you see from the top of your mast? - [[multi plane camera]] - [[map of the future]] ~ [[mosaic]] - [[flancian]] [[agora]] plus iframes for mvp of the above - [[Chris Aldrich]] standard based, using each item as a block - [[oembed]]? - tools tends to target one tool only, lots of duplication - [[activitypub]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] over designed it, over specified it, few people understand it completely - [[aaron parecki]] - [[mastodon]] as the de facto standard rather than ActivityPub itself - we can bridge to mastodon or pleroma, do not need to reimplement it - what about [[rss]]? - [[Jerry Michalski]] does this not break transclusion? - How can we prevent the unproductive RSS/Atom wars of the early blogosphere? - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[least common denominator]] - problem or potential? - [[tbl]] simplified [[sgml]] and made it break gracefully - [[resiliency]] - [[cory doctorow]] on the [[tragedy of the commons]] - [[modus operandi]] and [[throughput]] amazing - [[Chris Aldrich]]: cory has a [[commonplace book]] essentially, see https://pluralistic.net/2021/01/13/two-decades/ - [[flancian]] - [[adversarial interoperability]] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interoperability - [[catalog of missing devices]] - from chat unprocesssed - Jerry Michalski dice:transclusion - Chris Aldrich dice:How to create a Read Fork Write Merge Web? ## 2022-06-17 - Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[metasj]], [[Mathew Lowry]], [[flancian]] - (joined late) (chat history) - https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/semmy-social-knowledge-fabrics/2248 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plYobK-VufM - https://docs.ipfs.io/how-to/pin-files/ - https://bra.in/3vPgD9 - [[Jerry Michalski]] and [[mathew]] on [[medium]] - #push [[Mathew Lowry's chapter]] for [[pkg book]] - https://mathewlowry.medium.com/from-personal-to-social-knowledge-graphs-a-vision-statement-draft-fc86ef4f7022 - outsourcing commenting to [[hypothesis]] - [[web annotation standard]] - [[activitypub]] - [[activitypub]] to [[web annotation standard]] bridge? - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[nuggets]] in the [[big fungus]] - [[Mathew Lowry]] [[nuggets]] as cross-linked executive summaries - [[fediverse]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] what's the simplest possible example to get going on comments and annotations on the fediverse? - what would be the mvp? - [[mastodon]] server? - [[mattermost]] channel - how to [[interlink]]? - [[metasj]] - challenge: take a [[global commons]] that you care aobut, and scope out its potential full extent - [[Jerry Michalski]] take a [[pattern language]] that already exist - (lists three) - [[liberating structures]] - https://www.liberatingstructures.com/1-1-2-4-all/ - Peeragogy - Wise Democracy Pattern Language - chat bots: [[five whys]] - ...and turn them into [[commons]] shared materials and instrument - [[pattern languages]] == [[distilled wisdom]] - from patterns to praxis - a platform for pattern languages: this was tried on top of [[mediawiki]] [[smw]] - [[metasj]] [[wikibase]] >> [[smw]] - [[instrumentalize]] > [[instrument]]? - Integrate - Arborize - what's the verb when mycelium sprouts a mushroom? - [[fruiting]] - [[metasj]] tried to put [[ward]] and [[alexander]] in contact to discuss agreeing on a platform - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[engelbart]] struggled with this - a strategy to make everybody facilitating facilitations a better facilitator - leads to a global memory artifact - [[mathew]] what's the end goal of this envisioning/scoping exercise? - [[metasj]] a couple of measures of scope: - proportion of total human societal interaction affected in a given year - [[Jerry Michalski]] (ways of measuring global impact) - empowering people - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[applause in sign language]] - used in [[occupy movement]] - other gestures used: disagree, blocking, speak louder - [[flancian]] related: [[free, fair and alive]] [[anarchist cybernetics]] - [[reading club]] on [[dawn of everything]] in [[ogm]] - -> [[node club]] - [[Mathew Lowry]] - tools to better capture knowledge produced from conferences/workshops and share it with the world - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[idea commons]] - pastors.com is where a lot of evangelical preachers get what they say on Sundays (!) - open source sermon central - [[flancian]] - pattern repository, people router - alternatives - [[flancian]] - [[counter anti disintermediation]] leading back to distributed systems and liquid democracy - maybe could yield a metric w.r.t. degree of distrubution of structures of power - [[complementary cognitive artifacts]] - maybe yields a metric w.r.t. resiliency to losing - composed effects of higher efficiency in cooperation, [[coordination problem]] - chat - unschooling, regenerative agriculture, traffic calming... - ice:bootstrapping: ways to make people vectors for a new approach - patterning: process for helping people abstract their work to its full potential extent - which will usually overlap w/ the full-extent of other existing/smaller patterns - matchmaking: people who could work on the same vectors - https://www.clearerthinking.org/ - [[action items]] - [[flancian]] - [ ] upload past recording to youtube - [[metasj]] and [[flancian]] 1:1 - [[building bridges]], [[wormholes]] - [[workshops]] and [[facilitating]] of world building - [[future casting]] -> [[incepting]] - [[wikimedia]] + [[web annotations]] - [[diego de la hera]] - there is an extension that makes them worked well together - how does the community moderate annotations? - [[flancian]] default: the site sets the default ranking function for annotations. and perhaps some annotations are community owned, wiki like? ## 2022-06-09 - Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[diego de la hera]], [[flancian]], [[Chris Aldrich]] - Inviting others - [[flancian]] been inviting people already, but would be like to use some kind of policy? - [[Jerry Michalski]] suggest to use the Mattermost to coordinate; use this space to consider together our goals and attract others like this - [[mattermost]] https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/ogm-fellowship-of-the-link - let's use the list of people in the [[doc]] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RAourQe_MKh0uWomLsS_V5ea3zm30g8paE49X56jIHs/edit - to brainstorm on who to invite if you want to discuss a priori - [[flancian]] invited Dan because of his interested in the space + his experience with web standards - [[Jerry Michalski]] - [[web]] https://www.fellowshipofthelink.org/ - who wants admin? :) - 0@flancia.org - delahera@gmail.com - christopherjaldrich@gmail.com - we could also start groups in social networks, e.g. linkedin - [[flancian]] [[mastodon]]? - got stuck in [[choosing an instance]] - [[diego de la hera]] mastodon.social could be seen as the default - (instance delegation could be interesting, web of trust like) - http://www.unmung.com/mastoview is a tool for helping to choose Mastondon instances - [[diego de la hera]] lack of defaults as a hindrance to adoption here, in the indieweb as well - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[barry schwartz]] https://bra.in/4jXVP2 - [[the tyranny of choice]] - [[schelling point]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] with more choice you usually get increasing complexity - you are given so much choice it's almost too much (in the indieweb) - [[Jerry Michalski]] templates, walkthroughs add a lot of value - [[Chris Aldrich]] you need either a lot of time or people motivated because they're building business - [[peter kaminski]] introduced [[Jerry Michalski]] to [[obsidian]] - on straightforward vs powerful tools - [[diego de la hera]] on the power of forks - e.g. [[Chris Aldrich]]'s setup is something we could fork to bootstrap a new user's environment - people have copy/pasted Chris's website already, full pages at a time :) - [[flancian]] [[map of the fediverse]] - longer term goals / brainstorming / dream sharing - [[Jerry Michalski]] - series of projects revolving around these issues - [[open global mind]], started 2y ago - part of a [[flotilla]] with other organizations - 8am pacific, standing call for [[ogm]] - [[rel8]] - why is it so hard to share, integrate notes -- build arguments? - -> [[argument mapping]]? - [[argumentation theory]] - [[stephen toulmin]] -> [[toulmin model of argument]] - [[the big fungus]] == https://thebigfungus.org - interested in the scaffolding, infrastructure to share ideas - [[think camp]] funds startups in this space - "profitable businesses that feed the [[commons]]" - read an interesting article today, conservative point of view with good arguments even though some disagreeable premises - how do we put this article up to scrutiny and learn from it together? - -> [[web annotations]]? - [[gyuri lajos]] - **[[Jerry Michalski]] let's have a group sync with Gyuri?** - [[Chris Aldrich]] trails are related to [[vannevar bush]]'s - wishlist for [[fotl]]: how do these parts fit together? - how do we make it so that our notes provide maximum utility, spread through the big fungus - [[Chris Aldrich]] would like to focus on how to - make it all work together - make the systems be easy to use - make something that is as simple to understand as facebook? - I'd like to see [[commonplace books]] that can "talk" to each other. - "the [[stream]] flows by too fast" - turning streams into gardens - [[neil]] from the Agora has great writing on streams vs gardens, how they relate to each other - https://doubleloop.net/ - [[john borthwick]] at [[betaworks]] has funding for small projects [[think camp]] - Watch parties - [[connection series]] - watch these, take notes/diagrams and share/interop - -> [[books, paintings, movies, ideas that shaped many people's lives]] - https://bra.in/5pxdW6 - [[dan whaley]] youtube annotations are a side project / hobby - [[docdrop]] https://docdrop.org/ - [[diego de la hera]] - web annotations were mentioned; thought of two connections - [[peter hagen]] -> [[lindylearn]] https://lindylearn.io/ and specifically https://annotations.lindylearn.io/new/ - social platform where you would find what other people are annotating and join the conversation - provides a discovery layer for what others are reading and thinking about - [[chrome]] is also tackling annotations - [[worldbrain]], [[memex]]? - it seems like here we want to work more on the level of how to connect different annotation tools at a (federated?) layer - perhaps what we need is an integration device at this layer, e.g. [[wikilinks]] - Timing - After the event, [[Mathew Lowry]]: https://doc.anagora.org/Kz1qvywQRjq9nZ-ElXlHUg?view Matterbridge site for group communication: https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/tips https://collectivesensecommons.org/ Mathew Lowry mentioned [[Mysilio]] - [https://github.com/mysilio-co](https://github.com/mysilio-co) - (https://mysilio.com/) a "thinking tool"/platform that uses [[Solid]] - funded by [[Foundation for the Web]]; has a social media tool and a digital garden [[David McRaney]] ([twitter](https://twitter.com/davidmcraney)) has several books: - [[How Minds Change]] #books/wanttoread/2 - [[You're Not So Smart]] #books/wanttoread/2 - [[You are Now Less Dumb]] ## 2022-06-02 - Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[diego de la hera]], [[flancian]], [[Chris Aldrich]] - Our personal history - Diego en Córdoba - Jerry Michalski pasos por sudamérica, ahora en Portland - Eduardo de Buenos Aires, ahora en Suiza - Relationships locally and globally - Jerry: [[open global mind]] meeting just before - Send email to sociate@gmail.com to sign up :) - ([[Chris Aldrich]] joined, introductions) - [[Jerry Michalski]] - [[the brain]] - [[chris]] any shares in the company? - not anymore - do you have backups? - occasionally :) but the format is a big bag of [[json]] objects, not bery interoperable - wishlist: [[open global mind]] platform instead - [[diego de la hera]] - hypothes.is user, contributor as the maintainer of the unofficial extension for firefox; working with [[wikimedia foundation]] - met Chris through hypothes.is - [[Chris Aldrich]] - background: biomedical and electrical engineer, been on the web since the early 90s - [[indieweb]] / https://indieweb.org - [[open web backup]], strong belief in owning your own domain, your own data, your own identity - done work on genetics, but germane: spent a lot of time in the [[entertainment industry]] as it overlaps with the open web - massive amount of data - history, culture as intertwined with knowledge tools - current focus on wikis and note taking tools - [[Jerry Michalski]] wishful thinking for a design in this space - it should allow all users to view data through their chosen tools - sometimes you change tools as you shift what you need to do (they are good at different modes of thinking) - [[planes]] - [[multi plane camera]], [[disney history]] - similar to layers in photoshop/gimp - bought https://www.playnz.dev - [[kumu]] == https://kumu.io - is it open source? - [[jupyter notebooks]] are an inspiration - https://thebigfungus.org - [[leaf cutting ants]] - ([[diego de la hera]] worked with them) - [[symbiotic relationship]] with the fungus - [[diego de la hera]] we mentioned a diversity of tools here: - closed and open - wiki like and otherwise - ...but as long as these platforms provide this data in a documented way, do we need a central tool? wouldn't collaboration emerge even without a central tool? - [[jerry]] +1 -- the big fungus is a metaphor for the result of this collaboration. But [[playnz]] might be an [[mvp]]/[[demo]] or just an experiment/playground for interoperability. - are these tools perhaps already playns? - they might be, yes. - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[progressive enhancement]] is key - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement - how can we take all these tools and build an architecture that supports progressive enhancement? - we start with plain text as the base, then you can add things like markdown/html, then you add photos/media - [[flancian]] problems and opportunities: - exploring hub architecture vs full graph integration - lossiness as you interop through tools, playns - complexity of integrations - [[Chris Aldrich]] pairwise compatibility is a nightmare - [[translation as a service]] - [[pandoc]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[paas]] == [[pandoc as a service]] - [[markdown as lingua franca]] - [[Jerry Michalski]] - [[mapping tools for thinking]] in [[jerry's brain]] - also an amazing list of people - book: [[the extended mind]] - interest in the [[crystallization]] of what we know together - contributing to the same lists -> [[collective action]] - [[diego de la hera]] the relationship between these efforts and [[wikimedia]] projects - [[intermingle]] / preservation of voices - [[ward cunningham]]! [[fedwiki]] - Ward's calls - [[Chris Aldrich]] we should invite [[mark bernstein]], [[tinderbox]] - [[fellowship of the link]] as it relates to other projects - [[diego de la hera]] isn't the web as a whole what we need? :) - [[html is the lingua franca of our time]] - [[web mentions]] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention - https://brid.gy/ - [[indieweb]] has examples of this working - [[acid test]] of interoperability - [[swat0]] https://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0 - search engine for tagged/linked trusted content - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonplace_book - intimacy gradient - [[delicious]] - #c19 == [[19th century]] - [[technorati]] - [[lists]] we could assemble: - people in this space - the above - [[tantek Çelik]] - "how can we build this with as little technology as possible" - projects in this space (knowledge tools) - recurrent calls in this space - https://lu.ma/toolsforthoughtrocks - possible [[lingua francas]] - [[Chris Aldrich]] "The world lost so much because Vannevar Bush didn't use the word commonplace book in his article As We May Think." - how can we take open tools like [[logseq]], or semi-open like [[obsidian]], and create a reusable store - [[blot]] == https://blot.im - [[granary]] == https://granary.io/ for translating between silo formats as well as feed formats [[rss]], [[atom]], [[h-feed]], [[JSONfeed]], etc. - https://bra.in/3vGWLa - https://bra.in/7v2NRe